Small Group Chronicles: From Script to Screen, With Matt Chastain

Geoffrey Whitt: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Faith and Family Filmmakers Podcast.

Geoffrey Whitt: 00:00:02

I'm Geoff,

Jaclyn Whitt: 00:00:03

And I'm Jaclyn.

Geoff: 00:00:04

And we're excited today to be talking with filmmaker Matt Chastain.

Jaclyn: 00:00:08

Okay,

Jaclyn: 00:00:13

Matt Chastain is the writer slash director, and an actor in Small Group the movie, which won best picture at the International Christian Film Festival.

Geoff: 00:00:17

Welcome Matt.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:18

Hey, thank you guys for having me.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:19

I'm very, very excited to be on this podcast.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:21

I was telling you guys before we started, I, uh, had the chance to listen to your first four episodes.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:26

If we timestamp this thing, that's where we are, you guys have already released four episodes.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:30

I've listened to both the episodes and the bonus episodes so far, and I, as a filmmaker, I myself find this very, very valuable content.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:38

You guys are talking to the right people.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:40

I know several of these people you guys have talked to.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:42

I know Jared real well, and I found myself riding down the road yesterday on the way home from a shoot and just listening to your guests, talk going amen, that's exactly right.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:49

Preach preach it.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:51

People, Listen to these people, they know what they're talking about.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:53

So yeah, I like what you guys are doing.

Matt Chastain: 00:00:55

And not only that, you guys are very, very organized and, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?

Matt Chastain: 00:01:00

You know what you're doing.

Matt Chastain: 00:01:02

You've got a plan and you're working that plan.

Matt Chastain: 00:01:04

So I'm very impressed with what you guys are doing with this.

Jaclyn: 00:01:06

Oh, thank you.

Geoff: 00:01:07

I don't know if we feel that way.

Geoff: 00:01:10

We've been finding our way.

Geoff: 00:01:11

We've been learning as we go, in many ways, and lots of learning curves, with regards to a podcast.

Geoff: 00:01:17

We've done lots of things, but not a podcast.

Matt: 00:01:19

It's a very nice way of saying fake it till you

Jaclyn: 00:01:21

But I do need to give credit to Geoff.

Jaclyn: 00:01:23

Geoff has worked very hard at learning how to do all the things that you just said, like how organized it is and like, cause it does, it sounds really good.

Jaclyn: 00:01:32

I mean, there's, of course, there's, always room for improvement.

Jaclyn: 00:01:34

But I am so proud with where we started.

Jaclyn: 00:01:37

Um, and I'm very proud of Geoff cause he's the one that, did all of the production and organizing all of that.

Jaclyn: 00:01:43

He did all of the research on the software that we use.

Matt: 00:01:46

Well, you've done well.

Matt: 00:01:47

Even the back end stuff, like scheduling this thing.

Matt: 00:01:49

I'm getting all these automatic text reminders and the links sent to me.

Matt: 00:01:52

I'm like, these guys, they got their act together, so very good.

Jaclyn: 00:01:55

Oh, thank

Geoff: 00:01:55

Well, when we,

Geoff: 00:01:56

want to be interviewed, we'll call you

Jaclyn: 00:02:00

That's right.

Matt: 00:02:01

I should get a podcast and I'll have you guys on, But enough about me, let's talk about you

Geoff: 00:02:05

We actually want to talk about you.

Jaclyn: 00:02:07

Yeah.

Matt: 00:02:08

Oh, shucks.

Jaclyn: 00:02:09

Okay, so one of the ways that I found you was, I remember a while back I saw this trailer for this movie called Small Group, and I thought it looked really cool.

Jaclyn: 00:02:20

But where we were, we didn't have access to it at the time because, you know, living in Mexico, we're limited sometimes.

Jaclyn: 00:02:26

That was when it first came out and, and then I kind of forgot about it for a while.

Jaclyn: 00:02:29

And then when we were thinking, who would we want to interview?

Jaclyn: 00:02:32

I remembered that movie.

Jaclyn: 00:02:34

Then you, you shared a link with me where we were able to actually watch, small group and I was so glad we finally got to see it because it did not disappoint.

Matt: 00:02:42

Oh, good.

Matt: 00:02:42

Thank you so much.

Jaclyn: 00:02:43

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:02:44

So let's, let's talk about that.

Jaclyn: 00:02:46

You wrote it, right?

Matt: 00:02:47

I wrote Small Group, directed it, and I, uh, I was not the lead in it, but I was, I guess, number three on the call sheet.

Matt: 00:02:53

And I wasn't planning on acting in the movie at all.

Matt: 00:02:55

That was not a, that's not a smart move.

Matt: 00:02:57

Small Group was my first feature film.

Matt: 00:02:59

I was a little older when I finally got into chasing feature film, pursuing feature film.

Matt: 00:03:03

I was, 38, I think when we shot small group

Matt: 00:03:06

And, you know, the, genesis of it...

Matt: 00:03:07

I'll try to tell the story pretty quickly.

Matt: 00:03:09

It was very simple.

Matt: 00:03:10

I mean, I've always been in production, right?

Matt: 00:03:11

I've been making TV commercials and, you know, video and video production, basically for my whole career, with a little stint in radio.

Matt: 00:03:19

But, I was in my mid 30s.

Matt: 00:03:20

My wife and I just joined a new church, and small groups were kind of, we were a little late to get the whole Rick Warren small groups thing here in, in, Georgia, but I I have a lot of friends who would talk about small group all the time, and one buddy in particular would always miss tuesday softball because he had small group.

Matt: 00:03:35

I'm like, man, forget that.

Matt: 00:03:36

Come on, let's play softball..

Matt: 00:03:37

We joined this church and it was, it's a big church.

Matt: 00:03:39

You know, one of these little mini mega churches.

Matt: 00:03:41

And we just struggled to plug in, And so we heard well, you got to join a small group.

Matt: 00:03:45

Okay, fine, we'll give that thing a shot.

Matt: 00:03:47

So we tried a couple and know, they worked to varying degrees, but we finally got one that I felt like, okay, these people know how to small group.

Matt: 00:03:54

And I'm sitting there.

Matt: 00:03:55

It's a second or third meeting.

Matt: 00:03:57

We're having a good time, we're shooting the breeze.

Matt: 00:03:59

We're at the guy's house who my character in the movie is actually based on, and he's, he's hilarious, he's a riot...

Matt: 00:04:04

just so deadpan, funny.

Matt: 00:04:06

And I'm thinking, man, this is a great environment for storytelling.

Matt: 00:04:10

Because, I mean, think about all the, the different environments for storytelling that we usually use, it's either within a family, it's romantic, within a relationship, it's at work or a team.

Matt: 00:04:19

But, you know, for a lot of evangelical Christians who go to these big megachurches, your small group really is like the second or third most important group you belong to.

Matt: 00:04:29

I know people who were, you know, they're going to share more in their small group than they will, at their mom's house while their cousin's over.

Matt: 00:04:35

Like, it becomes like number two after family.

Matt: 00:04:37

And so I'm like, why hasn't anyone made a movie called Small Group?

Matt: 00:04:41

And so I told a buddy of mine that, he's a local producer, and he did what producers should do.

Matt: 00:04:44

He said, That's great.

Matt: 00:04:46

And I thought, by the way, I thought I was telling them, like, here's a favor.

Matt: 00:04:48

Have at it.

Matt: 00:04:49

See you later.

Matt: 00:04:50

He goes, go write it.

Matt: 00:04:51

And I thought, write it Me?

Matt: 00:04:52

I've never written a movie film before.

Matt: 00:04:54

Um, so I was dumb enough to think, well, sure, I can do that.

Jaclyn: 00:04:58

Of course.

Jaclyn: 00:04:59

How hard could it be?

Matt: 00:05:01

How hard could screenwriting be?

Matt: 00:05:02

Come on.

Matt: 00:05:03

Yeah, I sat down And in about a month I banged out a draft.

Matt: 00:05:05

I was like, this is easy.

Matt: 00:05:06

I could write a movie in a month.

Matt: 00:05:08

Uh, it's so fun to look back And see how stupid you were at one point in life.

Jaclyn: 00:05:13

Did you get feedback after that?

Matt: 00:05:15

So Chris, he read it, he's like, You've done a lot here, Matt.

Matt: 00:05:17

That's what he said.

Jaclyn: 00:05:18

Mm hmm.

Jaclyn: 00:05:19

There you go.

Matt: 00:05:21

But, he and his wife are part of small groups and that kind of thing, and so he's like, this is something that has a lot of potential.

Matt: 00:05:26

Luckily, at the time, or maybe we were blessed at the time, there was a guy who just moved to Athens, Georgia, who had been in the film industry in LA for many years and kind of was, you know, just sick of that culture, I guess you'd say.

Matt: 00:05:37

And so he moved here to write a book.

Matt: 00:05:39

His specialty is script development.

Matt: 00:05:41

He didn't write a word.

Matt: 00:05:42

He's like a counselor for your script.

Matt: 00:05:44

And he would call it script consultation, but the process is much more in depth and organized than any process I've ever known for script development I would write a draft, submit it to him, he'd take 30 or 40 hours reading it and taking notes.

Matt: 00:05:58

And then he wouldn't send me the notes.

Matt: 00:05:59

We would sit down together at a coffee shop and we would talk about it like a counseling session.

Matt: 00:06:04

All right, page one right here.

Matt: 00:06:06

And it could be anything from comma splice here, some misspelling here, to, giant things about structure and character and, and motivations and story.

Matt: 00:06:15

It was, it was, It was everything.

Matt: 00:06:16

So, we would have these like eight hour sessions, and I would just like, we'd talk, and I would kind of defend things, or he'd say, here's a little problem here.

Matt: 00:06:22

And he would often suggest a solution to that problem.

Matt: 00:06:25

I'm...

Matt: 00:06:25

usually didn't take his solutions because...

Matt: 00:06:27

hardheaded, uh, creative type, but, but I would go, okay, I see what he's going for there, let me see if I can find a better way to do that in my voice.

Matt: 00:06:34

And so, that's script development.

Matt: 00:06:36

So we would do that, and then I'd go back and write, and do the draft, and that's, kind of one round of development.

Matt: 00:06:40

And we did that nine times over 18 months.

Matt: 00:06:43

And I don't think you can write a script and then, you know, write a first draft, and then submit to somebody, get a little feedback, write it again, and then you're done, ready to shoot.

Matt: 00:06:51

You can't get to where you are without draft after draft after draft after draft after draft, because you're not going to learn what you need to know about the ninth draft without doing something in the third draft and breaking it all apart.

Matt: 00:07:02

And I think the outside perspective really helps.

Matt: 00:07:05

What you don't want to do though.

Matt: 00:07:06

A lot of people do is send it to everybody they know and then just start

Jaclyn: 00:07:08

Mm, hmm

Matt: 00:07:09

gettin' flying at them in a chaotic way, and notes competing.

Matt: 00:07:13

So the rule we had was look, I'm your script development producer...

Matt: 00:07:16

no one sees this except for me and you until I'm ready to say, okay, now we, we, let it go and bring other people in.

Matt: 00:07:24

Um, that way, that kept it organized, and I think it helped us get where we needed it to go.

Matt: 00:07:28

And since then, I've kind of done that for other writers.

Matt: 00:07:31

I'm in the middle of doing that right now for, an actor, friend of mine who, I mean, he's, he definitely has a role in one of the biggest, shows

Matt: 00:07:36

on, on Netflix of all time.

Matt: 00:07:38

And he came to me and said, Hey, I want you to help me as a development producer.

Matt: 00:07:41

So we're, we're doing that for him now, just cause I kind of learned that process.

Matt: 00:07:44

But it's a beautiful process.

Matt: 00:07:46

And that's kind of what us to...

Jaclyn: 00:07:47

Yes.

Jaclyn: 00:07:47

Yes.

Matt: 00:07:47

...to being able to go raise the money.

Jaclyn: 00:07:49

That's very similar to what I had when I wanted to get into the film industry as a screenwriter.

Jaclyn: 00:07:55

I had just written screenplays for fun, literally, just because I had ideas and so I needed to do something with them.

Jaclyn: 00:08:03

And then.

Jaclyn: 00:08:03

About eight years ago, my husband said, um, you need to do something with this.

Jaclyn: 00:08:07

This needs to get made.

Jaclyn: 00:08:08

He read one of my screenplays, and so then he was like, yeah, you need to, pursue this.

Jaclyn: 00:08:12

And so then I went out and I found a mentor, and that's pretty much the exact same process that we went through is I would give him one of my screenplays, he'd read it through, make a ton of notes on it, and then we would sit down together and page by page go through his notes so that we could talk it through.

Jaclyn: 00:08:28

I could understand his thought process.

Jaclyn: 00:08:31

He could offer suggestions, which a lot of the time, I didn't want those either.

Jaclyn: 00:08:35

Not because I was hard headed, but most of the time because it took the story in a direction that wasn't the story I wanted to tell.

Jaclyn: 00:08:41

So, then that's part of the process, I guess, of learning how to articulate your ideas.

Jaclyn: 00:08:46

But I, I value that process very much, and anybody who wants to learn how to write a screenplay...

Jaclyn: 00:08:52

If you can find somebody to do that process with you, it is amazing.

Matt: 00:08:56

It is And it's, it's, they've got to understand how to do it as well.

Matt: 00:09:00

Because notes can be such a destructive process or a constructive process.

Matt: 00:09:04

And like you said, sitting down so we can discuss these things is so much more constructive than just, um...

Matt: 00:09:10

this actor I'm working with right now, he's like, man, can't you just send me the notes so I can...

Matt: 00:09:14

I was like, no, because the way I write them, you might've misinterpreted it.

Matt: 00:09:18

We need to have a conversation.

Matt: 00:09:20

I might want, to tell you a story.

Matt: 00:09:22

And so, yeah, our, sessions go four or five hours as well.

Matt: 00:09:25

And that's, what you need to do.

Matt: 00:09:26

And you got to do it over and over and over and over and over again, until you get to a pretty developed draft where your, characters and your story are all woven, you know, a lot more beautifully.

Matt: 00:09:37

I'm big on characters, okay?

Matt: 00:09:39

I want to see arcs in as many characters as possible, even if they're tiny little arcs.

Matt: 00:09:43

That, to me, does away with a lot exposition, I'm more concerned with the character development than I am the story development, although they other, obviously.

Jaclyn: 00:09:52

Yes, yeah, they need to.

Jaclyn: 00:09:54

but I think it's very clear and obvious, with watching your movie, how much you care about the characters.

Jaclyn: 00:10:00

Because you made them so unique unto themselves, like so distinct, and it was really entertaining to watch so many different personality types all in one room, which is what small groups are,

Matt: 00:10:14

It is.

Jaclyn: 00:10:15

You've

Jaclyn: 00:10:15

got people from all

Jaclyn: 00:10:16

over

Matt: 00:10:16

it's hard to write that.

Matt: 00:10:17

If you're not careful...

Matt: 00:10:18

One of the things that writers do, one of the mistakes we all make, is somebody else will read it and they'll be like, Why are almost all of these characters in your voice?

Matt: 00:10:28

Well, I'm the writer.

Matt: 00:10:29

They're not you.

Matt: 00:10:30

They're different characters.

Matt: 00:10:31

And for me, I'm writing a small group of, uh, five couples.

Matt: 00:10:35

That's ten people.

Matt: 00:10:36

So I've got to figure out how in this two hour movie, to allow all ten of these characters to have their own personalities.

Matt: 00:10:43

While still getting somewhere with the story.

Matt: 00:10:45

So, you know, the small group meetings were the toughest.

Matt: 00:10:48

I think there's three main small group meetings in the story.

Matt: 00:10:51

And you don't want those meetings to just put the story on its breaks, right?

Matt: 00:10:55

I was very careful.

Matt: 00:10:57

I think you talked a bit about this with, uh, oh, I forget the gentleman's name.

Matt: 00:11:00

The last guy's a professor, but he was talking about this and he was Sean.

Matt: 00:11:03

Yeah, Sean.

Matt: 00:11:04

He was so right.

Matt: 00:11:05

This can't be a vehicle for your sermon.

Matt: 00:11:10

If anybody listening hears nothing else we're saying, it's that.

Matt: 00:11:14

The story is not the vehicle for your sermon.

Matt: 00:11:17

And me writing this, it very well could have become that, right?

Matt: 00:11:21

It could have been my, okay, they're all in a meeting now, it's time for me to preach to people and tell them why they wrong, but that's not what you do.

Matt: 00:11:27

It's, it's about a story and let's see what happens if we follow this guy.

Matt: 00:11:33

So for the, listeners who don't know, the story is about a filmmaker.

Matt: 00:11:37

And he's a, you know, much like Sean's movie, he's a non believer.

Matt: 00:11:40

Grew up in church, but, you know, moved out west.

Matt: 00:11:43

He's coming back to Georgia.

Matt: 00:11:44

He's been hired to make a documentary film.

Matt: 00:11:47

One of the critiques about his several previous films is that he's just not objective.

Matt: 00:11:52

This is back when objectivity was still something that the documentary filmmakers pretended to go after.

Matt: 00:11:58

Uh, it was still kind of an ethic for journalism and documentary back then.

Matt: 00:12:01

Now they don't even pretend anymore.

Matt: 00:12:03

But back then that was his ethic.

Matt: 00:12:04

And so he gets hired to make this movie.

Matt: 00:12:05

Comes out...

Matt: 00:12:06

He's going to make a movie about the dwindling influence of Christianity in America.

Matt: 00:12:09

And so he thinks he's going to approach it just like a regular documentary, shooting interviews and that kind of thing.

Matt: 00:12:13

But the producer goes, no, we're going to actually put spy cameras on you and you're going to infiltrate this church and infiltrate a small group in order to really get behind the scenes so we can go get them.

Matt: 00:12:23

And, uh, so it's his struggle to make a movie that is objective while still keeping his producer off his back, who's trying to make a very different movie.

Matt: 00:12:32

And that's kind of what we explore.

Matt: 00:12:34

And, you know, at the end his infiltration is, exposed.

Matt: 00:12:37

And how are the small group going to handle that?

Geoff: 00:12:39

Yeah, and, your challenge then of course, is to make a movie with message in it, and with a positive

Geoff: 00:12:46

outcome, without

Geoff: 00:12:47

inserting preaching.

Matt: 00:12:49

And the way you do that is simple.

Matt: 00:12:50

Learn the difference between subtext and exposition.

Geoff: 00:12:53

Mm hmm

Jaclyn: 00:12:54

Mm hmm, Mm hmm

Matt: 00:12:54

And that's what I think a lot of first time writers don't know how to do, maybe they know how to do it, but it's hard.

Matt: 00:13:00

It's very hard.

Matt: 00:13:01

Now, I'll say this, your first draft is going to be very expositional.

Matt: 00:13:04

Your second draft may be more like a Hallmark movie.

Matt: 00:13:07

You know, that's all Hallmark movies are.

Matt: 00:13:09

Any Hallmark movie could be turned into an Oscar winning movie.

Matt: 00:13:12

It's just that they're like, okay, we're good.

Matt: 00:13:13

This is fine.

Matt: 00:13:13

Let's go.

Matt: 00:13:14

Let's make this thing, right?

Matt: 00:13:15

No, it's, It's, it's, more about developing, developing, developing.

Matt: 00:13:18

And so, that's one of the biggest notes I would always get and the biggest notes that I give is, okay, bury that subtext.

Matt: 00:13:23

This is exposition, find a way to bury it In subtext.

Matt: 00:13:27

One of the best ways I've been able to communicate that to people is, I think about Forrest Gump, the scene when, when Jenny...

Matt: 00:13:34

they're adults now, right?

Matt: 00:13:35

And Forrest has made money and Jenny's come back and they're going on a walk.

Matt: 00:13:39

And she sees the old house she grew up in.

Matt: 00:13:42

And she just gets so emotional and angry and starts throwing rocks at it.

Matt: 00:13:46

Forrest could have said, You know, Jenny was experiencing post traumatic stress syndrome from a childhood trauma she received, but he didn't say that.

Matt: 00:13:54

He said, Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks.

Matt: 00:13:58

Now that is like subtext that'll give you chills.

Matt: 00:14:01

What we have to do is, go through our own script and be objective enough to go, all right, stop preaching.

Matt: 00:14:07

This is expositional.

Matt: 00:14:09

Um, and in church exposition is a good thing.

Matt: 00:14:11

We're going to have an expositional study Bible.

Matt: 00:14:13

That's great.

Matt: 00:14:14

But, uh, no, in storytelling, that's what Jesus tells us.

Matt: 00:14:17

The disciples are asking him, Why are you telling parables?

Matt: 00:14:19

He's like, because they don't understand.

Matt: 00:14:21

We've got to tell them stories so that they can understand the metaphorical connection to the logic we're trying to give them.

Matt: 00:14:27

Right?

Matt: 00:14:27

And thats our job as filmmakers.

Jaclyn: 00:14:30

And if you think about, the learning process...

Jaclyn: 00:14:33

when you're told something,

Jaclyn: 00:14:35

The way that you learn it is different than if you discover something, right?

Jaclyn: 00:14:40

And so when you're watching a movie where, the characters are driving the story, moving everything forward, the story's unfolding,

Jaclyn: 00:14:49

and it's not preachy, it's it's just life is happening for everybody involved, the audience can actually discover the lesson that is buried and baked into the movie.

Jaclyn: 00:15:00

And it's better for the audience to discover that rather than to be told, and okay, now I understand this is what I'm supposed to learn from this movie.

Jaclyn: 00:15:08

You want them to discover that on their own.

Jaclyn: 00:15:11

Then they can own that discovery process.

Jaclyn: 00:15:13

They learn it on a deeper level.

Jaclyn: 00:15:14

It touches them more emotionally, which is where memory, then, is going to be triggered because our emotions trigger us to remember things.

Jaclyn: 00:15:24

So this whole process of, writing in a way that allows the story and the characters to unfold and grow authentically, it actually serves the purpose better than just, you know, preaching and being expository.

Matt: 00:15:39

Exactly.

Matt: 00:15:40

It's like the difference in, um, putting in a, workout and nutrition plan to get fit and have more energy, versus just, Let's go to Starbucks and get espressos to get energy, Right?

Matt: 00:15:52

If I want to hit them over the head and do it quick, I'm going to be expository about it.

Matt: 00:15:55

But if you're calm and you put the time in and you understand the difference in subtext and exposition, then that's more like a, a healthy workout and nutrition plan.

Jaclyn: 00:16:04

Right.

Jaclyn: 00:16:05

Yeah, for sure.

Jaclyn: 00:16:06

That's a good way of looking at it.

Jaclyn: 00:16:07

There's more depth, and more sustenance.

Matt: 00:16:10

I think so, I think so.

Matt: 00:16:11

And the other thing too is this, I believe, like I know this is the Faith and Family Filmmaker Podcast, it's good that there are those of us out there who are telling stories and affecting culture in a more biblical sense, but I will say this, I think we kind of make a mistake, in our little world...

Matt: 00:16:30

We become very, very formulaic, like there's, there's only one formula that's okay for us as Christian filmmakers to use in storytelling.

Matt: 00:16:39

I feel like mistake we make is we try to sanitize life too much, because we're christians and we don't say bad things and we don't get next to scary topics.

Matt: 00:16:48

There was a book I was reading the other day that was written for believers, that did not shy away from the messiness and, just sinful nature of humanity.

Matt: 00:16:59

It's called the Bible.

Matt: 00:17:00

Right?

Matt: 00:17:01

Read the Old Testament.

Matt: 00:17:02

The Old Testament doesn't, Because I've gotten that note a lot from, certain, um, big distributors is, you know, well, we, we've gotta keep this clean and pure because we're Christians.

Jaclyn: 00:17:11

Well, and that's what I was going to say.

Jaclyn: 00:17:13

This is, it's a distribution thing.

Matt: 00:17:15

It is.

Matt: 00:17:16

There's a difference in art and marketing, but I think there's a, this false moral connection that, well, since we're Christians, we have to be very pure.

Matt: 00:17:24

I'm like, your purity standard is above the Bible.

Matt: 00:17:27

Read the Bible and some of the things that happen...

Matt: 00:17:29

The bible is not shy to get into the messiness of life, and it doesn't always follow it up with a nice squeaky clean wrap up where everybody finds Jesus and they're all happy.

Matt: 00:17:39

So, I think we got to be a little more real in the way we tell stories.

Matt: 00:17:43

Um, it's, it's got to connect to what real life is because the gospel will stand.

Matt: 00:17:47

It will, we don't have to work to hard to defend it...

Jaclyn: 00:17:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Matt: 00:17:49

It'll hold up on its own.

Jaclyn: 00:17:51

Well, and what the bible does, is it teaches us how to include the gritty realities of life, in a way that does honor God.

Jaclyn: 00:17:59

Because when the Bible talks about all of these things that happened, it does not say, and it was good with God that he did this, you know, like you, you get a very clear understanding.

Jaclyn: 00:18:11

No, yeah, the sin was definitely not something that worked in that person's favor or in a way that glorified and honored God.

Jaclyn: 00:18:20

So when we create art that includes uh, you know, the gritty realities of life, as

Jaclyn: 00:18:26

long as we recognize that we don't glorify that behavior, like we can include aspects of stories and stuff like that, but we don't glorify it.

Jaclyn: 00:18:36

We don't pretend like this is the goal.

Matt: 00:18:38

No, thats right.

Jaclyn: 00:18:39

And that's part of what Hollywood does, right?

Matt: 00:18:41

Oh, 100%.

Matt: 00:18:42

100%.

Matt: 00:18:42

Yeah, that's the distinction where we definitely agree.

Matt: 00:18:45

But let's say this.

Matt: 00:18:46

If you walk into Pure Flix, or I don't know, but there's new management now, but if you walked into Pure Flix and you're like, listen, I got a great idea for a movie, okay?

Matt: 00:18:53

It's gonna be about this lady whose husband dies and now she can't get his money, so she's gonna get her father in law drunk, and then sleep with them and have this baby out of wedlock.

Matt: 00:19:06

What do you think?

Matt: 00:19:07

They would be horrified and send you out.

Matt: 00:19:09

Like, well, that's in the Bible, and that, baby that was born was, you know, one of Jesus's ancestors.

Matt: 00:19:13

So, I guess that's the point is that we have to be able to explore like you said, the grittiness of life.

Matt: 00:19:18

Not glorify sin.

Matt: 00:19:19

Absolutely not.

Matt: 00:19:20

But also, we need to, take more of a look at it as Jesus did, you know?

Matt: 00:19:25

Go and sin no more.

Matt: 00:19:26

And also,

Matt: 00:19:27

find that balance between truth and grace.

Matt: 00:19:29

Because I think unfortunately when you're too expository, you get on a little too heavy on the side of truth.

Matt: 00:19:34

And then if you're Hollywood, you get too heavy on the side of grace.

Matt: 00:19:36

So that's our, constant

Matt: 00:19:37

struggle is to find, that medium between truth and grace.

Matt: 00:19:40

Yeah.

Matt: 00:19:41

Definitely.

Matt: 00:19:42

And actually, I would like to talk more about this in our Members Only portion, because I still have more to say, and I'm sure you have more to say also, but, you know, as we wrap up this part of the interview, I just want to ask, do you have any final thoughts for our listeners?

Matt: 00:19:56

And please tell them where they can find Small group, because after we've

Matt: 00:19:59

yeah, yeah,

Jaclyn: 00:19:59

yeah, yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:19:59

talked about it, I'm sure they want to go see it.

Matt: 00:20:01

Yeah, I hope you guys will check out small group.

Matt: 00:20:03

We're at small group movie dot com.

Matt: 00:20:05

Small group is on, Amazon prime and several other, I think it's on pure flicks.

Matt: 00:20:09

It's on a bunch of places.

Matt: 00:20:10

would ask that you go get it on small group movie dot com because Jeff Bezos is doing fine.

Matt: 00:20:15

I checked earlier today.

Matt: 00:20:16

He's got plenty of money and so he doesn't need half that rental fee.

Matt: 00:20:20

A lot of people talk about, Oh my gosh, you're on Amazon Prime!

Matt: 00:20:23

That's amazing!

Matt: 00:20:23

I'm like, no it's not.

Matt: 00:20:24

It's not that hard to get on Prime.

Matt: 00:20:25

You can just upload it and Bezos keeps half your money, so.

Matt: 00:20:29

But anyway, yeah, you can go to smallgroup.

Matt: 00:20:30

com and check it out.

Matt: 00:20:31

I hope you guys will.

Matt: 00:20:31

We're on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter at smallgroupmovies.

Matt: 00:20:34

So check it out.

Matt: 00:20:36

The last words I would say, just thank you guys for having me and anybody listening to this, go listen to all these episodes while you're driving around.

Matt: 00:20:44

If you like filmmaking, if you are a Christian and you're a believer, the whole podcast is a masterclass in that.

Matt: 00:20:49

And go over, listen to it.

Matt: 00:20:50

Cause we're, what we're about to say, oh my gosh, this is about to get really, really good.

Matt: 00:20:55

You don't want to miss what we're about to say in the members portion.

Matt: 00:20:57

So come on.

Geoff: 00:20:59

Thanks, Matt.

Jaclyn: 00:21:00

I feel like he just took, he took our job.

Jaclyn: 00:21:02

Like, good job.

Jaclyn: 00:21:02

I want to applaud you.

Jaclyn: 00:21:04

I'm not like, uh, saying it in a negative way.

Jaclyn: 00:21:06

I'm like, man, we need him on our team.

Jaclyn: 00:21:09

Okay.

Matt: 00:21:11

I always wanted to be that guy, Billy...

Matt: 00:21:12

What was his name?

Matt: 00:21:13

Billy Mays here!

Matt: 00:21:15

I thought that was a good job.

Matt: 00:21:17

Pitching products.

Jaclyn: 00:21:19

We're Canadian.

Jaclyn: 00:21:20

I don't know.

Jaclyn: 00:21:20

I know don't if know...

Matt: 00:21:22

You guys are Canadians?

Jaclyn: 00:21:23

...if I know the reference that you're making.

Jaclyn: 00:21:24

Yes.

Matt: 00:21:24

Like, you went from Canada.

Matt: 00:21:25

You skipped over to the United States and landed in Mexico.

Jaclyn: 00:21:28

That's where we went, yup.

Matt: 00:21:29

You want to talk about Guatemala, we'll talk about Guatemala, where we filmed part of the movie...

Jaclyn: 00:21:32

We will.

Matt: 00:21:33

...in the members only section.

Matt: 00:21:34

So that's where it gets gritty people.

Jaclyn: 00:21:35

Awesome.

Matt: 00:21:36

Come on!

Jaclyn: 00:21:36

All right.

Jaclyn: 00:21:37

Well, join us the members only portion.

Jaclyn: 00:21:39

We'll see you there.