Tackling R-Rated Subject Matter

Jaclyn: 00:00:00

You are listening to the Faith and Family Filmmakers Podcast.

Jaclyn: 00:00:02

My name is Jaclyn, and today I'm speaking with Spencer Fulmar of Hard Faith Film Festival and hard faith films in general.

Jaclyn: 00:00:11

And in our previous conversation we were talking about, uh, how to balance.

Jaclyn: 00:00:16

You know, just getting into the, gritty types of, storylines for films and honoring God in that process.

Jaclyn: 00:00:23

And so I kind of wanna just dive right back into that.

Jaclyn: 00:00:26

Um, can you explain or maybe share some of your thoughts for how you approach that?

Jaclyn: 00:00:31

How do you get into those really difficult situations in a way that, uh, doesn't put your actors in a position where they.

Jaclyn: 00:00:42

Could potentially be sinning.

Jaclyn: 00:00:44

So how do you approach that?

Spencer: 00:00:46

Yeah, that's a great question.

Spencer: 00:00:47

Um, you know, it's, it's a, it's a difficult question to answer and, and I'll definitely give you my personal thoughts and feelings and convictions on it.

Spencer: 00:00:57

Um, when you're, when you're tackling a difficult subject, you know, I, made a film on the opioid epidemic.

Spencer: 00:01:02

have a film I'm currently working on, on, suicide prevention, and, I think especially for faith-based artists of today, maybe not of prior generations, but of today, whenever you convert to Christianity or you're told, or, or someone says that they have a calling to become an artist and, a faith, you know, natured artist, I. A lot of people, especially young people, get told a lot of rules, um, what you can and can't do, what you can and can't say what you can and can't depict.

Spencer: 00:01:30

I think the best example that we can all use for everything, but even especially for the calling of the artist is, follow the example by scripture.

Spencer: 00:01:40

And as we talked about before, you know, scripture is unflinching in depicting the difficult nature of humanity and all the atrocities that we do.

Spencer: 00:01:51

Um.

Spencer: 00:01:52

It is written text.

Spencer: 00:01:54

It's not visual.

Spencer: 00:01:54

So there's a new layer of responsibility of the artist and the storyteller and as a Christian on how you depict these things.

Spencer: 00:02:03

Um, we've been r-rated, uh, for multiple reasons.

Spencer: 00:02:06

and, and I've also, you know, told PG stories because, you know, there's, ways to tell stories in new ways, in different ways.

Spencer: 00:02:13

And not everything has to be R rated.

Spencer: 00:02:16

But I think it's, it's very difficult, like for myself personally, um, I really do try and follow the example of the Bible as much as possible, while also not deeming higher than the Bible, uh, cultural preferences or cultural standards.

Spencer: 00:02:33

and you know, like one thing that I personally don't do in my, any of my films is I, I don't use the Lord's name in vain just because.

Spencer: 00:02:40

Even for a fictional non-Christian character in my film, I don't think it's necessarily a, a sin for someone to do it, but I just really hate to hear Lord's name in vain, but other language I will use, um, especially because I. I believe that, a lot of sin is about the heart intention.

Spencer: 00:02:59

It's not necessarily about a do and don't list.

Spencer: 00:03:02

and whenever I'm depicting like, you know, the, drug trafficking world or sex trafficking or, you know, suicidal ideation, um, there is language that the human race is created that is beyond the time when scripture is written.

Spencer: 00:03:17

We've used it and elevated certain words to more meaning or more force, and it can be used in a very sinful way and most often is.

Spencer: 00:03:25

But I think there's ways to, to depict the world accurately using language, um, and depicting, you know, horrors that are often r rated and not appropriate for families, but can be edifying for adult Christians trying to understand how to navigate their faith in an R rated world.

Spencer: 00:03:43

but personally too, bleak as some situations are, you know, I, I, for whatever reason, I was up late last night and I never ever do this, but I'm trying to write my next screenplay, so I force myself to do this.

Spencer: 00:03:55

But I watched one of my old movies and I never do that because once you're done with a film, you've seen it.

Spencer: 00:04:00

And I typically edit my film.

Spencer: 00:04:02

So you've seen it a thousand times and you just can't stand to see it or talk about it again.

Spencer: 00:04:06

But I watched one of my old movies last night and, I try to always impart the audience with a sense of hope.

Spencer: 00:04:14

Um, I don't try and simplify a complicated situation like in shooting heroin, which is the film I watched last night.

Spencer: 00:04:21

Uh, because the opioid epidemic is a multifaceted beast.

Spencer: 00:04:24

Um, there's not one solution to someone's addiction and there's not one cause.

Spencer: 00:04:29

And so.

Spencer: 00:04:30

In that film, and it was the hardest film I've ever made, and I hope it's the hardest film I ever make.

Spencer: 00:04:36

But in that film I. Was disciplined in not presenting.

Spencer: 00:04:41

Like, alright, if you do this, then you'll be saved, or you know, you'll be free of your addiction.

Spencer: 00:04:48

Because unfortunately, solutions don't work that way with complex human lives.

Spencer: 00:04:54

Another thing we try and do with hard faith is.

Spencer: 00:04:57

You know, whether it is, um, like a testimonial given at your church, like we talked about in the last episode about like the Salvation Army.

Spencer: 00:05:04

You hear these incredible testimonies from people at churches, parishioners, who have turned their life around dramatically.

Spencer: 00:05:11

They were an addict.

Spencer: 00:05:13

I. Thankfully, by the grace of God today, they're not using that drug.

Spencer: 00:05:16

Um, or they were suicidal.

Spencer: 00:05:18

And today by the grace of God, they're not depressed.

Spencer: 00:05:20

but I think sometimes we do a disservice in faith-based films and, and we're limited by the amount of time that we have to tell this story.

Spencer: 00:05:27

It's not a television show.

Spencer: 00:05:28

It's not a narrative book.

Spencer: 00:05:29

It's 90 minutes, 120 minutes.

Spencer: 00:05:32

But I think too, sometimes we present a false, um, idea of what it means to live and walk with Jesus.

Spencer: 00:05:41

Your whole life, because after conversion, as much as I would like to say when I converted Christianity at 21, you know, I just kept climbing up the mountain.

Spencer: 00:05:50

But unfortunately, I, I tumbled either by

Spencer: 00:05:54

my own actions or people's actions down the valley more often

Jaclyn: 00:05:58

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:05:58

Yeah.

Spencer: 00:06:00

And, and thankfully the Bible is so honest about that and the Psalms and Ecclesiastes and Lamentations are so honest about that.

Spencer: 00:06:06

and, and I think also it's.

Spencer: 00:06:08

Somewhat by design that we never pretend that we can do this without God.

Jaclyn: 00:06:14

Yeah.

Spencer: 00:06:15

when I'm writing a script, even though you know there's a very long answer, um, I don't try and say, once this person finds God or they make the right decision, I. There's no repercussions or there's no complications or there's no difficulties.

Spencer: 00:06:30

Um, and so I just try to make it as real as possible to what I've observed in my own life and other people's lives.

Jaclyn: 00:06:39

Yeah, I think that authenticity, um, it speaks volumes.

Jaclyn: 00:06:43

Especially, you know, one of the things as a writer, you always have to keep in mind who is your audience.

Jaclyn: 00:06:48

And so if your audience is more, like, if you're thinking more of a, a missional type thing, like what you're saying, where you know, you want maybe people in prisons to watch it or, um.

Jaclyn: 00:06:59

Know people who aren't already saved to watch it and appreciate it and connect with it, then you can't simplify things like that.

Jaclyn: 00:07:09

And you do need to represent people with authenticity or they're gonna see right through it and just pick it apart.

Jaclyn: 00:07:15

They won't be able to feel like they can see themselves in it.

Jaclyn: 00:07:19

Uh, but just to kind of back up a bit, when you were talking about language, even Hollywood recognizes that harsh language.

Jaclyn: 00:07:26

Creates a culture in itself.

Jaclyn: 00:07:28

I know it's kind of become so normalized now where in the last 20 years, it just doesn't matter which side of the fence you're on.

Jaclyn: 00:07:35

It's like foul language exists everywhere.

Jaclyn: 00:07:38

But in the nineties.

Jaclyn: 00:07:40

Eighties and nineties, like the person in the movie who had a foul mouth was considered to be either evil or, uh, not educated.

Jaclyn: 00:07:51

Like it, it meant something.

Jaclyn: 00:07:53

It had its own kind of connotation with it because they used vulgarity in their speech.

Jaclyn: 00:07:59

Uh, like even for example, um, in the movie Dangerous Minds, right?

Jaclyn: 00:08:03

It was actually rated R it came out in the mid nineties, uh, rated R literally just for language.

Jaclyn: 00:08:10

Like there's, there's no, if you watch it, it, like today, it wouldn't be rated r it'd probably be rated PG 13.

Jaclyn: 00:08:17

But the children, the teenagers, uh, they were from a really, really rough part of wherever they lived.

Jaclyn: 00:08:24

I forget where.

Jaclyn: 00:08:25

but they had a lot of.

Jaclyn: 00:08:27

Language issues.

Jaclyn: 00:08:29

You know, I lay a lot of foul language, but then the teacher came in and started working with them, and so if you actually watch it, I literally sat my son down as a teenager and had him watch it with me so I could point things out to him because the more that the teacher worked with them and believed in them and poured herself into them so that they would grow and expect more of themselves out of life, their vocabulary changed.

Jaclyn: 00:08:51

And the first half of the movie was.

Jaclyn: 00:08:54

So full of F-bombs and all kinds of vulgar language.

Jaclyn: 00:08:58

And the second half there was almost none.

Jaclyn: 00:09:00

it, yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:09:01

Like when you watch it from that perspective and you realize that language really does speak to what is inside a person, like what you were saying, like, it's the intention right?

Jaclyn: 00:09:13

And I even had like a, a struggle in one of my own scripts that I was writing because it was based on a true story of when I worked in a prison.

Jaclyn: 00:09:21

Well, believe me, in a prison

Spencer: 00:09:25

I can.

Jaclyn: 00:09:26

Yeah, exactly.

Jaclyn: 00:09:27

And I did have, I had a rule like I was teaching, class.

Jaclyn: 00:09:30

And so I had a rule in my classroom we don't use.

Jaclyn: 00:09:34

That language, but they had to catch themselves all the time and, and try to come up with a different word, which I had to teach them a different word because they, it's like they didn't have a vocabulary that didn't in include the F-bomb.

Jaclyn: 00:09:46

Like that was like 50% of their vocabulary.

Jaclyn: 00:09:50

It can mean so many things.

Jaclyn: 00:09:52

Um, but the other thing is that when, when we were talking and when they were having a breakthrough, when somebody was willing to actually share and be vulnerable.

Jaclyn: 00:10:00

I never stopped them.

Jaclyn: 00:10:01

Like if they had, if they used foul language, like I would never interrupt them and say, now remember, that's a rule in our classroom.

Jaclyn: 00:10:08

We don't talk.

Jaclyn: 00:10:09

You know?

Jaclyn: 00:10:09

No.

Jaclyn: 00:10:10

Like, I'm not going to do that.

Jaclyn: 00:10:11

They're having a moment and I need to respect that moment.

Jaclyn: 00:10:15

And so there's always, in real life and in film, like there's always going to be this, balance and this discernment of when do you address it, when do you not, um, you know, and, and recognizing like.

Jaclyn: 00:10:28

In that moment, if this person, they're pouring out their heart, if they don't have the words at the ready, like those are the words that are gonna come out.

Jaclyn: 00:10:38

And so again, the heart intention, they weren't intending to be vulgar in that moment.

Jaclyn: 00:10:44

They were just raw and yeah, and, and so it was hard for me to try to write this script.

Jaclyn: 00:10:51

'cause on the one hand I wanted to really represent them authentically.

Jaclyn: 00:10:55

And on the other hand.

Jaclyn: 00:10:56

This is for a Christian audience.

Jaclyn: 00:10:57

And so I'm like, ah, how do I address this?

Jaclyn: 00:11:01

So I actually, I did find a way to imply that they used this foul language, but it didn't actually get into the script.

Jaclyn: 00:11:10

So you don't actually hear it.

Jaclyn: 00:11:12

But there's this implication that she's dealing with them in their vulgarity and their language and, and whatever, and, uh.

Jaclyn: 00:11:19

So, yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:11:20

Yeah, I do my best to be clever when I'm writing because Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:11:24

You gotta keep your audience in mind.

Jaclyn: 00:11:26

But I like what you're saying and I think that definitely is an audience, um, that is able to, I guess, recognize the difference.

Jaclyn: 00:11:35

'cause even for myself, when I, I've done voice acting and there have been, um, some roles that I've voiced where.

Jaclyn: 00:11:43

The rawness of the character in the moment, and again, based on a true story, um, I recognize that what was written for that character at that time, uh, it needed to be.

Jaclyn: 00:11:58

Said this way.

Jaclyn: 00:11:58

And now there was one time where I did say like, I'm not gonna take the Lord's name in vain.

Jaclyn: 00:12:02

So they allowed me to take that part out of the script.

Jaclyn: 00:12:04

But I mean, her, her child had been murdered.

Jaclyn: 00:12:07

Like, it's not going to be something where she's going to be focused on using, you know, proper poetic language.

Jaclyn: 00:12:14

Like she is just so utterly broken and raw.

Jaclyn: 00:12:19

And the only words that can describe that depth of agony are those harsh words sometimes.

Spencer: 00:12:26

yeah,

Jaclyn: 00:12:27

You know?

Jaclyn: 00:12:28

Yeah.

Spencer: 00:12:28

I think that's such a good point.

Spencer: 00:12:30

And, you know, art too.

Spencer: 00:12:32

I think there's a, a purpose of art and Historically, I think it can be provocative.

Spencer: 00:12:38

You know, it's what you tell through a film, and how you connect with audiences and how you depict these tragedies.

Spencer: 00:12:44

Like this woman you described, you know, losing their, their daughter, It's hard for a pastor to say that in words from the pulpit, but the beauty of a film is that we still give our undivided attention for two hours in a dark room, often pay money to do it, and we just fall into this story and I. What I think like, it's almost like art therapy.

Spencer: 00:13:07

Um, I think it can really help us if we allow ourselves to be able to empathize with people who are very different from us.

Spencer: 00:13:14

And through that two hours we find out how similar we are, even though at first they may have seen so different.

Spencer: 00:13:20

I mean, your, your prison film, you know, sounds incredible because I think prison ministry is so important and I think often.

Spencer: 00:13:28

Christian Art can make it so much about us versus them.

Spencer: 00:13:32

but I just don't really believe that's the situation which we're living in.

Spencer: 00:13:36

It's, you know, it's us for them, you know, and there's no good and bad guys.

Spencer: 00:13:39

It's

Spencer: 00:13:39

just bad guys like me that got saved by the only good guy, and so.

Spencer: 00:13:45

I love it whenever, however you do it.

Spencer: 00:13:48

And I think artists have that, um, you know, ability to do it in a new way, especially through such an amazing medium like film, that we have a way to make people empathize with those that we never considered otherwise or that we've never interacted with.

Spencer: 00:14:04

And these are the brothers and sisters, you know, these, these are the lost sheep.

Spencer: 00:14:07

They don't look like what we typically imagine they would or who we're sitting next to in the church.

Spencer: 00:14:13

But I. You know, they're, they're people that God also died for.

Jaclyn: 00:14:16

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:14:17

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:14:17

And it's so true.

Jaclyn: 00:14:18

And, and the thing is like with learning how to do it well, in order for people who.

Jaclyn: 00:14:25

Aren't already believers to be drawn into the story and to appreciate it.

Jaclyn: 00:14:31

Even if when they walk away, they're not convinced, like I don't think that the purpose of a movie is necessarily to convince someone of something.

Jaclyn: 00:14:39

Right.

Jaclyn: 00:14:40

It's more to.

Jaclyn: 00:14:41

Open them to a perspective.

Jaclyn: 00:14:43

Um, and that's why like there's even dangers with film because when you're watching it, you are opening yourself to understanding a perspective.

Jaclyn: 00:14:52

And if you don't do that with discernment, well then that could be, dangerous at times.

Jaclyn: 00:14:56

but I think that like the reality of using art, as you were saying, to connect with people like.

Jaclyn: 00:15:02

It is the way to connect with the inner part of people.

Jaclyn: 00:15:06

Like I was a musician for a long time, wrote music, and I found like in three and a half minutes I could draw emotion out of people where they could be bawling because of literally one song, three and a half minutes.

Jaclyn: 00:15:21

I could get straight to their heart, their emotion, and I could.

Jaclyn: 00:15:25

Like I could draw that out and hold it in my hand.

Jaclyn: 00:15:28

And so how much more so with a movie can we connect with people's emotions?

Jaclyn: 00:15:33

And then also with that, then we could start to kind of place things into a perspective, into an order where we could give them that revelation of how, when we bring Jesus into a situation, what can come out of it.

Jaclyn: 00:15:48

But then we need to do it in a way that allows them to draw, Their own opinion of that after the fact.

Jaclyn: 00:15:54

Like we can't necessarily manipulate their opinions.

Jaclyn: 00:15:57

We can just give them a perspective, and then it's up to them what they do with that after the fact.

Spencer: 00:16:02

Absolutely.

Spencer: 00:16:03

And, that's another thing I try and tell other Christian artists, especially people, you know, I, I speak at a lot of young filmmakers and you know, we're not replacing the church, we're not replacing the pulpit.

Spencer: 00:16:13

We're not replacing the work of the Holy Spirit.

Spencer: 00:16:15

I'm just trying to get them to ask a question, see the world in a different way and just.

Spencer: 00:16:20

Consider that you know, God might be real and that he is good.

Spencer: 00:16:24

Like if I accomplish just that, just to get a nonbeliever, an atheist and agnostic someone of another faith, just to consider the Christian God is real, I think.

Spencer: 00:16:35

It's already a tremendous win.

Spencer: 00:16:37

Um, and so we don't have to be exhaustive.

Spencer: 00:16:39

We don't have to give the entire gospel presentation.

Spencer: 00:16:42

We are just part of the journey, you know, of that seed growing by, you know, by God's grace.

Spencer: 00:16:49

And you know, if you just get the audience to ask that question, I think you can have.

Spencer: 00:16:55

You can make tremendous, um, progress to having a dialogue, a relationship with that person, and then hopefully that person, you know, having a relationship with other members of the faith community and the church and,

Spencer: 00:17:06

you know, going through that path.

Spencer: 00:17:08

But that's what's beautiful about art too, is that it's just, it's part of the journey.

Spencer: 00:17:13

It's not the full journey.

Spencer: 00:17:14

We're just, we got, we have em for 90 minutes.

Jaclyn: 00:17:18

and I love also what you're saying, like it's like we are creating tools so that the body of Christ can use these tools to connect with the lost sheep.

Jaclyn: 00:17:29

So yeah, it doesn't have to be exhaustive.

Jaclyn: 00:17:33

It needs to be something that points toward God, but then.

Jaclyn: 00:17:38

We need to trust that God is big enough to put people in that person's life that are going to speak into it and, and fill out the rest of the picture.

Jaclyn: 00:17:46

It does not need to be so completely exhaustive.

Jaclyn: 00:17:50

Uh, and I think that that might be part of where I. The, the Christian films have fallen into, um, the ones that have tried to, be more into, uh, you know, this is a, a more difficult kind of, situation, I guess in the story.

Jaclyn: 00:18:05

And, but then.

Jaclyn: 00:18:06

It becomes so exhaustive that it's, there's a lot of on the nose and there's a lot of, uh, you know, it's, it's accused of being cheesy and, and preachy and whatever, and it's because, well, there's not a lot of time, like you have to fit it all into the 90 minutes or so, and.

Jaclyn: 00:18:21

Well, you can't, and like you're saying like we don't have to give the entire puzzle to them, right?

Jaclyn: 00:18:27

Like we can give them the pieces and trust that God is giving people in their lives the rest of the pieces to help put that together so that they can see that big picture.

Spencer: 00:18:37

Absolutely.

Spencer: 00:18:38

And, and our faith in God, just like he did with us.

Spencer: 00:18:41

You know, it's like I heard seeds of truth my whole life and it and it, and then at the perfect time, you know, God revealed himself to me and it made sense.

Spencer: 00:18:50

And then I. It made sense in a small way, and I continue to search him out and develop my faith and deepen my faith.

Spencer: 00:18:56

and I hope, you know, a, a good piece of art, you know, even if you just see a Christian character portrayed in your film or your narrative work and that Christian character is authentically trying to glorify God.

Spencer: 00:19:08

I mean, that can be quite a testimony because you don't see that from Hollywood very often.

Spencer: 00:19:12

So it doesn't have to be exhaustive.

Spencer: 00:19:14

And it also doesn't have to be perfect because, you know.

Spencer: 00:19:17

I think it was Picasso that said, you know, never fear being perfect because you never will be.

Jaclyn: 00:19:22

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:19:23

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:19:24

It's

Spencer: 00:19:24

And, and we're especially not

Jaclyn: 00:19:25

Yes.

Spencer: 00:19:26

journeys and . Testimonies,We're just so messy.

Jaclyn: 00:19:29

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:19:29

Oh, such a good word.

Jaclyn: 00:19:31

so I wanna ask you before we finish out, where do you see God moving in your corner of the industry?

Jaclyn: 00:19:37

I mean, we might have just been talking about it the whole time, but if you've got anything more to add to it, uh, I'd love to give you this opportunity.

Spencer: 00:19:45

Absolutely.

Spencer: 00:19:46

Um, I see God moving in inspiring bold storytellers and filmmakers to tell authentic stories.

Spencer: 00:19:54

and they're not necessarily commercial.

Spencer: 00:19:56

But they are artful and they're true and they glorify gone.

Spencer: 00:20:02

Um, in some way, and I know this is kind of a of everything we've been saying, but I think audiences today, you know, throughout Hollywood, want real life stories.

Spencer: 00:20:13

They don't want CGI, they don't want superheroes.

Spencer: 00:20:16

You know, it's fun, the spectacle and, and spectacle.

Spencer: 00:20:19

I think it can be used in a good way and is important part of life.

Spencer: 00:20:24

But I think people want raw, real stories told authentically, and they don't have to fit the formula.

Spencer: 00:20:30

They can be very different.

Spencer: 00:20:32

We've seen the same film told by Hollywood and remade a million times and it's not making money anymore.

Spencer: 00:20:38

So I think even Hollywood too, and especially us as faith filmmakers can tell real, original, honest stories.

Jaclyn: 00:20:46

I love it.

Jaclyn: 00:20:47

So good.

Jaclyn: 00:20:48

Thank you so much for being on our podcast.

Jaclyn: 00:20:51

I've really enjoyed this conversation and I know that our listeners will as well.

Spencer: 00:20:55

you so much for having me on the show.

Spencer: 00:20:57

Really appreciate the opportunity.

Jaclyn: 00:20:59

God bless.