Episode 44

Makeup and Faith in Hollywood and Beyond, with Deborah Rutherford

Episode 44 - Makeup and Faith in Hollywood and Beyond, with Deborah Rutherford

In this episode of the Faith and Family Filmmakers Podcast, hosts Geoffrey Whitt and Jaclyn Whitt welcome Debra Rutherford, an Emmy recipient makeup artist. Deborah’s credits include Hollywood blockbusters such as Planet of the Apes, Mission Impossible, Men in Black, Pirates of the Caribbean, Avengers, and many more, but her desire is to work on more faith-based projects. She discusses her move from her move from LA to Georgia, and her realization of 'kingdom building' work within the industry. Debra also touches on her personal rediscovery of Christ, the challenges and moral dilemmas faced in the industry, and her ongoing project of exploring the intersection of beauty and faith through her podcast and upcoming book.

  • Deborah's Creative Path and Entry into Makeup Artistry
  • The Turning Point: Deborah's Return to Faith
  • Personal Transformation
  • Navigating Faith and Professional Boundaries in Hollywood
  • The Big Break
  • Exploring Beauty and Faith: Deborahs Writing and Future Projects
  • Final Thoughts and Invitation to Behold Her Beauty Podcast

Deborah Rutherford is a Christian writer, poet, podcaster, Emmy recipient makeup artist. She founded the Behold-Her Beauty Blog and Podcast at www.deborahrutherford.com. Although raised in California, she and her husband, Don, now call Georgia home. She enjoys a good cup of tea while journaling and Bible study, and as a beauty and wonder seeker, she finds her soul rest on nature walks. She has been published online at Gracefully Truthful Ministries, Aletheia Today, guest blogs and has a devotion in the anthology The Lord is My Shepherd, published by Arabelle Publishing and the Calla Press, Literary Journal Spring 2023.

Deborah's IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0665625/

Deborah on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deborahrutherfordwrites/

Deborah on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Mrs.DeborahRutherford/

Deborah on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3x1zSsbEC9xyfz9hmGVvnJ?si=0ff063e45aeb4f75

The Faith & Family Filmmakers podcast helps filmmakers who share a Christian worldview stay in touch, informed, and inspired. Releasing new episodes every Monday, we interview experts from varying fields of filmmaking; from screenwriters, actors, directors, and producers, to film scorers,  talent agents, and distributors. 

It is produced and hosted by Geoffrey Whitt and Jaclyn Whitt , and is brought to you by the Faith & Family Filmmakers Association

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Transcript
Jaclyn:

welcome to the Faith and Family Filmmakers Podcast.

Jaclyn:

My name is Jaclyn Whitt.

Geoff:

And I'm Geoff.

Jaclyn:

Today we have a makeup artist here with us.

Jaclyn:

Debra Rutherford is a Christian writer, poet podcaster, Emmy recipient makeup artist.

Jaclyn:

She founded The Behold Her Beauty blog and podcast@www.debrarutherford.com.

Jaclyn:

Although raised in California, she and her husband, Dawn now called Georgia Home.

Jaclyn:

She enjoys a good cup of tea while journaling and studying the Bible and as a beauty and wonder seeker.

Jaclyn:

She finds her soul rest on nature walks She has been published online at gracefully truthful ministries Aletheia today guest blogs and has a devotion in the anthology The Lord is my shepherd published by Arabelle publishing and the Kala press literary journal spring 2023 Welcome to Faith and Family Filmmakers Podcast Deborah.

Deborah:

Hi, Jaclyn, Geoff.

Deborah:

Thanks for having me on today.

Geoff:

Good to have you.

Jaclyn:

It's great to have you.

Jaclyn:

Actually, I'm really excited to get to know you because we actually haven't met yet.

Jaclyn:

But when I found that there was a makeup artist that is a Christian, I thought you would be perfect for the show.

Jaclyn:

Because most of the people I have contacts with are writers or actors or producers.

Jaclyn:

But I, we really want to include everybody that's involved in the film industry and clearly makeup is part of that.

Jaclyn:

Um, so tell me, how did you get started?

Jaclyn:

Like, where did that even come from?

Deborah:

Well,

Deborah:

I've always been a creative type of person.

Deborah:

I went to theater arts, at Loyola Marymount University.

Deborah:

Before that, Cal Poly Pomona.

Deborah:

Before that, Citrus College.

Deborah:

But I have my, degree from Loyola.

Deborah:

, got out of school.

Deborah:

And, I did not go in that direction.

Deborah:

I went into music and after many years in that, I had met my husband and we were just, Basically looking for a way to make a living and he knew about being a makeup artist.

Deborah:

Most people think that it's me that got us into it because he does it with me, but it was him.

Deborah:

And I have to always tell people, no, it was him because he grew up on the, um, Like the horror movies of the 1980s, you know, the, Dawn of the Dead and all of that.

Deborah:

And, There was, a very, well known makeup artist's His name is Dick Smith and he has since passed.

Deborah:

But he's the one who came up with basically the special makeup or makeup effects that we kind of use today.

Deborah:

He was kind of that trailblazer.

Deborah:

And so he was influenced by those movies too.

Deborah:

And then with that time we were living in Burbank, California, and we were going to a store, called Creature Features and everybody in the industry would go there at lunchtime, you know, the people from Universal, the people from Warner.

Deborah:

And you'd look at these, basically there were like these buildup model kits of every movie you've ever scene.

Deborah:

And so we

Jaclyn:

Oh, wow.

Deborah:

started getting to know people in the industry.

Deborah:

And then when I, decided to go to makeup school, my husband this time now is painting little model buildup kits for that store.

Deborah:

And the owner, Taylor White, knew Dick Smith.

Deborah:

And so he gave me his number to call him to say, I want to become a makeup artist.

Deborah:

And he just listened to me for a little bit and he was, now some people think this isn't a kind thing to say, but it was a kind thing.

Deborah:

He said, because he offered a course, but it was very advanced.

Deborah:

He says, I'm not going to take your money.

Deborah:

You're green.

Jaclyn:

Mm hmm.

Deborah:

older for getting into it.

Deborah:

At that time, I was 34 years old.

Jaclyn:

Right.

Deborah:

said, you're a woman.

Deborah:

He goes, it's going to be really hard for you.

Deborah:

But you can do it if you really work at it and you really want to.

Deborah:

And then he gave me, a list of books to buy, said, get a camera and practice for three months and then call me or go to makeup school.

Deborah:

So he recommended at the time, Westmoor Academy and I did have the money to go.

Deborah:

And so I went and When I met the director of Westmore Academy, she said that makeup was living art.

Jaclyn:

Mm hmm.

Deborah:

wow, that's so cool.

Deborah:

Like coming from theater and then coming from arts and craft, I was like, I could do that.

Deborah:

Like living art,

Jaclyn:

Uh huh.

Deborah:

You know?

Deborah:

But it was one of those, turning points in our life where I really felt, This is something I can do kind of naturally.

Deborah:

I mean, I had to work really hard at it, of course.

Deborah:

and I, didn't tell anybody my age probably for the...

Deborah:

for a while until somebody in one of the shops made a joke about a reference about, um, Oh, what was his name?

Deborah:

It was a comedian.

Deborah:

And I knew who the comedian was.

Deborah:

And he's like, I know how old you are.

Jaclyn:

Yeah.

Jaclyn:

You dated yourself.

Deborah:

And mind you, I'm only like 36 at the time, but that's the pressure, you can have in that industry when you have people that start right out of,

Deborah:

high school or whatever, but also at the same time, there's people from all walks of life in there, and so it's just, if it's something you want to do, you know, then you can work hard to do it.

Jaclyn:

I like what you said when, you were kind of prefacing, like, people say this is unkind, but actually it was.

Jaclyn:

And he basically told you, you're not ready.

Jaclyn:

But he didn't leave it at that.

Jaclyn:

He said, here's what you need to do.

Jaclyn:

And then you decided whether you wanted to do the work or not.

Jaclyn:

And I think that, sometimes, people might get offended by being told they're not ready, but what they're not hearing is that, just because you're not ready doesn't mean you're not able.

Jaclyn:

It just means that there's still work to do, and so I love your story that you took that and you went and you did the work and then, you succeeded.

Jaclyn:

You ended up becoming ready and, that's a powerful story.

Geoff:

So, did you call him back and get in his class?

Deborah:

I did.

Deborah:

I did get to take his course later.

Deborah:

Yes.

Deborah:

I ended up, it's just such a turn of events of one of his protoeges.

Deborah:

I ended up working in his makeup lab right out of school.

Deborah:

And so now He's calling on the telephone.

Deborah:

I'm like, Oh my goodness.

Deborah:

So interesting world that we live in, you know, , I think I'm in 29 years.

Deborah:

So it's,

Geoff:

Wow.

Deborah:

it's been, ebbs and flows.

Deborah:

Um, it's, a big part for me has been halfway through is when I came back to Christ.

Deborah:

So the first part I'm living secular

Jaclyn:

Mm hmm.

Deborah:

then the second part now saved but I'm still working in, I guess I call it secular film, the regular film industry.

Deborah:

And so that was a big turning point in my career, but also at that time we moved out to Georgia from Los Angeles, which my, husband's family is in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Deborah:

So we wanted to be closer to them, but also we had been brought out here to work.

Deborah:

We were brought out to work on the Hunger Games movies.

Deborah:

And we were like, this is so nice out here.

Deborah:

You know, you can drive around to all these neat places and we can go see the family and Florida's right there.

Deborah:

And when it became apparent that this is what we felt God was calling us to, we moved out here.

Geoff:

Well, there should be no shortage of, opportunities to work in film in Georgia.

Deborah:

the thing about the film industry is, I guess a lot of people say it's like California real estate or Los Angeles real estate.

Deborah:

It's volatile.

Deborah:

You know, it changes all the time.

Deborah:

You know, , if it's something that God wants me to be involved in he will keep me in it.

Deborah:

In the beginning there was a moment where I was like, okay, I'm saved now.

Deborah:

When do I get to leave?

Deborah:

When do I get to do some kingdom building work?

Geoff:

Uh

Deborah:

And what I came to realize is that being there was part of that.

Deborah:

That was my kingdom building.

Jaclyn:

Mm hmm.

Deborah:

you know, because not only do I sometimes have opportunities to Share Christ with people, but I have lots of opportunities to work out a lot of the things that I'm still working out on my walk.

Deborah:

Especially with, some of the old habits, old clothes, you know, ambition, striving that, can get caught up in that again, because it is a very competitive, environment but then one thing I also found out, because then there was a point where we thought, well, if we'd stay and we want to do faith based films, right?

Deborah:

but what I found out is they draw from the same crew.

Deborah:

There's no, this is your Christian crew.

Deborah:

This is your Jewish crew.

Deborah:

This is non religious crew.

Deborah:

They're all from the same pool of professionals and craftsmen.

Deborah:

Which is one hand is really wonderful, because you're, Working together in that sense, right?

Deborah:

And, um,

Jaclyn:

it's nice to work with like minded people.

Deborah:

yeah, like, in that sense, And so, we have done one, faith movie, It's called Southern Gospel.

Deborah:

We just finally watched it the other night, And it really did come out really a sweet movie, It's really nice, I highly recommend it.

Deborah:

And then we were up for another one.

Deborah:

And we didn't get it, but the makeup team that got it weren't Christians.

Deborah:

But I thought, well, maybe that's God's plan.

Deborah:

They need to be there,

Geoff:

Uh

Deborah:

you know, and I need to be over on Marvel, you know, like

Jaclyn:

Right.

Deborah:

maybe that's part of the plan.

Deborah:

And then what helped me a lot too was that, you know, if you join the army, you don't get a pick where you're stationed.

Jaclyn:

Yeah, that's a good point.

Deborah:

And so God will station us where he wants to station us.

Deborah:

And so I've made peace with that.

Deborah:

But a lot of it was, exploring through, writing about faith and beauty and, and what it all means.

Deborah:

Mm hmm.

Deborah:

you mentioned that like you started your career and then like halfway through, you found Christ.

Deborah:

So you were still living in California at the time?

Deborah:

Well, we were living in California and, , we were working on big films, made a lot of money, but then started feeling empty.

Deborah:

And so started, doing meditating and little new age, trying to find some spirituality.

Deborah:

I was raised, Catholic and I was, trying to find just some spirituality.

Deborah:

And then I went on a, movie job to Budapest and, my husband and I were Skyping and he put a Bible up on the screen and said, I'm reading the Bible.

Deborah:

And I was like, I want to read it too, you know?

Deborah:

and so, He said, well, you're in a hotel, look in the drawer.

Deborah:

So that evening when we got off the phone, I was, reading Matthew and I started reading the healings and it just, it just all came back to me.

Deborah:

Like, if I could say I had the Holy Spirit swishing to me moment, that was, that was definitely it.

Deborah:

And, what really struck me was that I had forgotten, forgotten that he was a healer.

Deborah:

And he, most importantly, that he could heal me now.

Jaclyn:

Oh, wow.

Deborah:

Yeah, so I was crazy the next day.

Deborah:

I went to work, um, Hungarians are a Christian country.

Deborah:

Catholic, Christian, and they didn't think I was crazy, but I'm running up to crew members going, did you know Jesus was a healer?

Deborah:

I forgot.

Deborah:

I forgot.

Deborah:

Did you know?

Jaclyn:

Like the woman at the well, just so excited to share.

Deborah:

Yes, exactly.

Deborah:

And my, you know, in my makeup trailer, there were only a few of us, from the USA and I think that some other people from England, but most everybody else was Hungarian.

Deborah:

And, it was, for the film, in the land of blood and honey with Angelina Jolie.

Deborah:

And so I'm in the makeup trailer telling every single person in there, did you know Jesus was a healer?

Deborah:

Couldn't believe I forgot.

Deborah:

And they just kind of looked at me like I was a little loony.

Deborah:

They're like, okay, calm down, calm down, Deborah, and with the Hungarian, they're just smiling at me going, yeah, we know, we know.

Deborah:

And, What is so wonderful about that is that my close friend from that period, who, was also a prodigal, going forward that she would come back to Christ too.

Deborah:

So it was just a really wonderful moment in time where you saw God work across the world basically, you know, California, Budapest.

Jaclyn:

That's amazing.

Jaclyn:

I can just imagine you've got people sitting in your chair and it's like maybe they're there for an hour and they don't know what they've gotten themselves into.

Jaclyn:

You're just gonna share the gospel.

Deborah:

well, and that's like new faith, you know, and, that kind of made me think that, maybe God brings people to faith at different times in their lives and different places with different experiences because you need that person who's so excited Cause you so clearly can see that line at that point, like what was before and what is now.

Deborah:

You know, you see that, it's so clear.

Deborah:

And not that you forget that ever, but it can become, well, we'll just, we'll just watch that, or we'll just, just do that.

Deborah:

Yeah.

Deborah:

Compromises.

Deborah:

Yeah.

Deborah:

Yeah.

Jaclyn:

In the beginning when it's, it's so fresh and you're so excited and you're just pressing in from all directions, in your faith.

Jaclyn:

And then I guess, yeah, there can come a point where you get very comfortable in it, you start to relax.

Jaclyn:

And so then that pressing in relaxes and then that's where compromise can creep in.

Deborah:

When you may not know it so much, for example, going back to work then a Christian, there were often times where the content was like, Whoa, this is not good, you know?

Deborah:

And it was kind of learning how, to deal with that in a sense.

Deborah:

I mean, there have been times where, there was, one show where the scene was to, mock Christ, really, I mean, had a character, but really it was a demon playing him.

Deborah:

And my husband's like, Nope, absolutely not.

Deborah:

We're not involved.

Deborah:

We will not be in the trailer when the character's in there.

Deborah:

We will not be on set.

Deborah:

We don't want to have nothing to do with this.

Deborah:

And you know what?

Deborah:

The production was like, okay, not a word about it.

Deborah:

It was a Warner Brothers production.

Deborah:

They respected our positiOn.

Deborah:

You know?

Deborah:

There's somebody else, yeah, somebody else to cover.

Deborah:

And so I think a lot of it's just knowing, what's acceptable.

Deborah:

And it's not just as a Christian, there was one, scene once where girl was being raped and one of the, I think one of the actresses, no, it was a makeup artist, had, that had happened to them before so they didn't want anything to do with it, you know, so it's, it's sometimes, in the content, if it's going to be, offensive or triggering to somebody, you have every right to say, I'm sorry.

Deborah:

Without losing your job.

Jaclyn:

Right.

Jaclyn:

Yeah.

Deborah:

I can't be a part of that.

Jaclyn:

That should be a thing.

Jaclyn:

Part of it, cause that line's going to be different for everybody, but part of it is actually intentionally setting that line.

Jaclyn:

Because if you don't have it, then you have no boundaries.

Jaclyn:

And so how do you know when they're being crossed?

Jaclyn:

Or how do you know when you need to stand up for yourself?

Jaclyn:

And so I, I like that, you and your husband, you have the communication and the relationship where you guys can support each other and say, nope, that's beyond what we are willing to participate in.

Jaclyn:

And so this is where our boundary is.

Jaclyn:

I'm happy for you that you had a good experience where you were respected in that decision and that it wasn't something where you.

Jaclyn:

Had to choose your job or your boundary.

Deborah:

Well I've seen, some of the younger people not know that they have that right, and then go along with things, you know, I remember one time, that's, little bit different, but not really.

Deborah:

Uh, PA, um, was asked to go into, what is it?

Deborah:

The Salton Sea, which is completely toxic.

Deborah:

And everyone's like, you don't have to do it because the actor refused to go in there.

Deborah:

It was like a lower budget movie.

Deborah:

And, he's like, Oh no, I have to go in, they'll, fire me or whatever.

Deborah:

And so he went in and they got sick, you know, not permanently sick.

Deborah:

I don't think, but it's like, he didn't know that he could say Nope

Jaclyn:

right, most job sites, there are protocols to keep people from getting sick, right?

Jaclyn:

or injuring themselves and,...

Deborah:

There are.

Deborah:

And you just have to, you know, be stern about it because, you can be on the biggest film ever and somebody will try to burn something they shouldn't or, you know,

Jaclyn:

mm, mm hmm,

Deborah:

a product they shouldn't, until somebody says something about and then they'll be, Oh, sorry, you know?

Jaclyn:

Right.

Jaclyn:

So, okay, going back to your journey, I wanna ask, was there a particular project where you felt like, okay, I'm in, where you felt like your career was, I guess, like on a new trajectory where you know, it wasn't just kind of like, little things here and there, but you were like, okay, I'm in this is, this is the project.

Deborah:

well, I had been working on, it was a show called Good vs.

Deborah:

Evil . It was a USA Today television show, out in Los Angeles.

Deborah:

And it was one of the first lower budget shows that the union organized.

Deborah:

So although it was union, it was probably like 16 bucks an hour.

Deborah:

I mean, it was like, but I was so happy because I was like, I was working, and I didn't have any money anyway.

Deborah:

So that wasn't a lot to me.

Deborah:

I was like, that's great.

Deborah:

But a gentleman named Rick Baker, who was also a prodigy of Dick Smith...

Deborah:

, His resume is just amazing.

Deborah:

But he, was doing the Grinch Who Stole Christmas and it was a bigger show than he Usually did at that point.

Deborah:

And so he needed to meet makeup artists.

Deborah:

So he held auditions for makeup artists,

Jaclyn:

interesting.

Deborah:

But you had to go in and apply the makeup at your audition.

Deborah:

And so the department head, Tony G, she had met me briefly like at at a party or whatever.

Deborah:

And she asked at that lab that I had been working at for the gentlemen, she asked him if she should test me.

Deborah:

And he said, well, she did a great Dorothy makeup.

Deborah:

I did a Dorothy makeup on a Wizard of Oz tribute.

Deborah:

But I don't know if she can do a prosthetic makeup, but you can try her.

Deborah:

And so they scheduled me so I'm working on this other show, the low budget show.

Deborah:

And at lunchtime I'm grabbing everybody I can to come into the trailer so I can practice on them.

Deborah:

And I have another wonderful,

Jaclyn:

Mm-Hmm.

Deborah:

um, the Kenny and Karen Myers who are giving me pieces to use.

Deborah:

So basically it's gluing a nose on and so then I had my audition and part of a good makeup as an actor that can sell it, especially as special

Deborah:

effects makeup.

Deborah:

And I got really lucky.

Deborah:

I got a guy that was just, he was just selling it, and the guy makeups were I would say easier than the female ones I just felt it was.

Deborah:

And so anyway, you were asking when there was that moment.

Deborah:

So I'm in a parking lot at nighttime, downtown LA filming.

Deborah:

It smells terrible.

Deborah:

And all of a sudden my husband calls and goes, you got a part.

Jaclyn:

In the Grinch?

Deborah:

Yeah, and I got hired on that.

Deborah:

And mind you, I'd been only doing it three years.

Deborah:

So I was just like, so green and so excited.

Deborah:

And my biggest stumbling block, no, I don't know what it's called, stumbling block.

Deborah:

My biggest thing at that point was I had to be careful to not let people think that I knew more than I did.

Jaclyn:

Right.

Deborah:

Even though I didn't tell people how old I was, just because I had life experience , I came off looking like I knew more than I did.

Deborah:

You know, um, in some areas I could do that.

Deborah:

Like if it was the coordinating or the scheduling or that part of the makeup, but the actual clocking in the hours of touching somebody's face and putting makeup on them, that...

Deborah:

you can't cheat that.

Jaclyn:

Mm-Hmm.

Deborah:

like, that's clocking in the hours, just, you know, over and over and over, just like anything else that you would be good at, you know,

Deborah:

And so that sort of entered into a whole nother level of, amazing makeup artists.

Deborah:

And that led to, , Planet of the Apes, where I assisted the department head, Tony G, with Helena Bonham Carter makeup.

Deborah:

And then, after that, Pirates of the Caribbean movies came.

Deborah:

, Mind you though, those...

Deborah:

like, working on big crews.

Deborah:

So keep humble, even though I wasn't, following God at that time, he was

Deborah:

pursuing me,

Jaclyn:

on

Deborah:

And so to keep me humble, plan the apes, huge movie.

Deborah:

I'm in the main trailer.

Deborah:

I think I'm something right?

Deborah:

And, so right afterwards, a friend says, Oh, you should do this.

Deborah:

independent film.

Deborah:

So go to do this independent film.

Deborah:

Now I'm in the desert in Lancaster and it's the trailer that's like the worst thing you've ever seen and hardly anybody can fit in it.

Deborah:

Like, so we're like bumping up against each other and I mean it, it was like a little tiny wagon basically.

Deborah:

at first, you know, we were like, "Ooh".

Deborah:

But a couple of days later, while the rest of the crew is out there in the desert heat, sweating it, that little tiny trailer just became, an oasis , so it's perspective and, it's important to always remember that.

Deborah:

And that's why I talked about the ebb And flow.

Jaclyn:

Yeah, for sure.

Jaclyn:

Well, we're going to look forward to talking with you more in the members only portion of our interview.

Jaclyn:

But before we finish out this one, I just want to ask if you have any final thoughts for our listeNers.

Jaclyn:

, Deborah: As I've been doing makeup, I've also always been a writer.

Jaclyn:

So I have, been working on a book, about beauty and faith.

Jaclyn:

And really asking God saying, Do the two go together?

Jaclyn:

What does it have to do with each other?

Jaclyn:

, Kind of just really, why am I doing the work that I'm doing?

Jaclyn:

Um, introspection.

Jaclyn:

And it's really led me to exploring, the inside beauty and that brings out the outside beauty and how there was a woman, that sat in my chair, um, this is, I think, the year before last, and she was probably 45, very pretty, but she was like, do you got something for this under eye area?

Jaclyn:

And I'm like, oh you're beautiful.

Jaclyn:

You're georgeous.

Jaclyn:

Mm

Deborah:

looking at kind of the younger people.

Deborah:

And I just said, you're radiating, you know, and it's about exercising, eating right, your spirituality.

Deborah:

And then she said, Oh, I have that.

Deborah:

I'm a Christian.

Deborah:

And then that was like, we were able to just really connect there and she no longer was worried about, her under eye area, which there wasn't anything to worry about, but you know what I mean?

Deborah:

We can get so caught up on our outside that we can what's inside.

Jaclyn:

Right, yes.

Jaclyn:

This face is not my identity, it's how people identify that it's me, but I am more than my face because if my face got damaged, I'm still me.

Jaclyn:

know, I would have to, I would have to grieve the injury or whatever, whatever it was that happened.

Jaclyn:

But at the same time, like, I still am me.

Geoff:

the

Jaclyn:

So identity, yeah, needs to be grounded in Christ for sure.

Deborah:

Yes, yes.

Deborah:

and I think as a Christian makeup artist that, that can be even without saying that to people when you're working with them.

Deborah:

It's a nurturing.

Deborah:

activity, I think, kind of a service, nurturing...

Jaclyn:

And is your book available?

Deborah:

No, not yet.

Deborah:

Um, I'm writing it right now and, um, it's in the stage where, I have someone that I'm going to meet with to look at it and read it and make sure that it's, sound,

Deborah:

And then pitch it to publishers and sort of that thing.

Deborah:

But in the meantime, I do have a, blog and a podcast called Beholder Beauty.

Deborah:

, We talk about this kind of conversations, kind of intimate, kind of candid and it's with just different women where We talk about the different areas in life that, look at your beauty from, you know, like this episode that just came out is the beauty of a fruitful life and it's with an author who, she wrote a book about, the fruit of the spirits and how we, can get rid of barriers that can keep us from living a fruitful life.

Deborah:

And so it's sort of, that sort of theme, like, how do we live out, in our day to day lives, the beauty of Christ rather than the beauty of the world.

Jaclyn:

That's beautiful.

Jaclyn:

Okay, good.

Jaclyn:

Well, I hope people will go and check it out and we'll have the, the links in the show noteS for that.

Jaclyn:

Debra, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story and your insights.

Jaclyn:

It's been wonderful.

Deborah:

Thank you.

Jaclyn:

And, uh, we look forward to talking with you more.

Jaclyn:

All right.

Deborah:

Thank you.

Deborah:

so much.

Deborah:

m

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