Vindication: News and Insights

Matt: 00:00:00

All right, everybody.

Matt: 00:00:01

Welcome to yet another episode of the Faith and Family Filmmakers Podcast.

Matt: 00:00:05

I'm your host, Matt Chastain.

Matt: 00:00:06

I'm going to dive right in.

Matt: 00:00:07

I got an old friend on the line right now, a name you all know and love, Mr. Jared O'Flaherty.

Matt: 00:00:14

Jared, thank you so much for taking some time today and getting through some, uh, technical difficulties to get this going.

Jared: 00:00:20

Yeah, yeah, and I'm just, are you going to behave today, Matt?

Jared: 00:00:22

Are you going to be nice to me, or are you going off the rails?

Matt: 00:00:26

I'll try to be nice.

Matt: 00:00:28

I do not promise behave.

Jared: 00:00:29

Okay.

Matt: 00:00:30

You know me better than that.

Matt: 00:00:31

Jared and I have sat on many, many, many Zoom calls that go three, four hours.

Matt: 00:00:35

And just had the best time.

Matt: 00:00:36

So we're going to, um, Geoff and Jaclyn get so mad at me when I, when I do a Joe Rogan three hour episode.

Matt: 00:00:42

So I'm going to try to keep this under 25 minutes per episode, but it's Jared, people.

Matt: 00:00:47

I figured you'd have a response to that.

Matt: 00:00:49

you're

Jared: 00:00:50

I'm just, I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm grounding myself before what's about to happen, so.

Matt: 00:00:55

All right.

Matt: 00:00:56

Look, I want to get to the big announcements, the big news from Vindication.

Matt: 00:01:00

you know you have a successful series when you're, one of your biggest, uh, challenges in life are the people giving you crap online.

Matt: 00:01:06

When's it coming out?

Matt: 00:01:07

When's it coming out?

Matt: 00:01:08

I mean, they, your series is really in demand.

Matt: 00:01:11

People love it.

Matt: 00:01:12

So, you've already announced it, but I want to kind of go a little more into this, season four release.

Jared: 00:01:17

Yeah, absolutely, and you're right on that.

Jared: 00:01:19

It's a good problem to have.

Jared: 00:01:20

You know, it got to a point where I couldn't post anything on social media about vindication because the comments would fill up with, I don't want to say mail, but it was When is it coming out?

Jared: 00:01:30

Like we're tired of, teasers and pictures and behind the scenes.

Jared: 00:01:33

Like we want to know when's this thing coming out.

Jared: 00:01:35

So I basically had to quit posting anything, until we knew that information, which we have it now, finally.

Matt: 00:01:40

Why you play with my emotions, Jarod?

Matt: 00:01:42

Give him a show!

Jared: 00:01:43

That's it, man.

Jared: 00:01:44

It's, it's all about when's it coming out.

Matt: 00:01:46

So when's it coming out?

Jared: 00:01:48

So, Season 4 will start releasing, weekly, one episode per week on March 20th, 2025.

Matt: 00:01:54

Okay, in, uh, platforms.

Jared: 00:01:56

We've got two platforms for Season 4.

Jared: 00:01:59

Uh, Angel Studios has jumped on board with Vindication.

Jared: 00:02:02

we think they became Vindies.

Jared: 00:02:04

Their people took a look at it and said this needs to be on Angels.

Jared: 00:02:06

So, they're releasing Seasons 1 through 3 this month, uh, here in February for all the audience.

Jared: 00:02:11

For all their people, their guild members, to get caught up on the show, and then, season four launches on the 20th there.

Jared: 00:02:19

And I think we're gonna do some, livestreams, some, some feedback with the cast and creators and those sort of things, uh, alongside them.

Jared: 00:02:26

And then, Redeem TV, who have been our partners, uh, since the beginning, they also will have those episodic releases on their service for their donors.

Jared: 00:02:34

So they have a, I think it's called Redeem 316, something like that.

Jared: 00:02:38

That if you're a donor, you'll get access as they, come out each week as well,

Matt: 00:02:43

I would encourage everyone to be both a donor to Redeem and a guild member to Angel.

Matt: 00:02:49

Just support all these platforms that are supporting, you know, good family Christian content, for sure.

Matt: 00:02:54

Um, Angel, I'm hearing, is really in an acquisition phase.

Matt: 00:02:59

They are really filling up that platform.

Matt: 00:03:01

But, I I've heard distributor, I know pretty well that they're not just taking anything and everything.

Matt: 00:03:06

They are being very selective to bring in only the highest quality content.

Matt: 00:03:12

So you get chosen for their platform, obviously that says a lot about what you're doing.

Matt: 00:03:16

Which is not a huge surprise to the Vendees out there who have watched, you know, seasons one through three of Vindication.

Matt: 00:03:23

I mean, you guys, I'm blown away at what you're able to do.

Matt: 00:03:27

And I know people listening to this, if you're not in production yourself, it's hard to really appreciate what Jared is able to do because you probably don't even know all the hats he wears.

Matt: 00:03:36

So Jared, I want to know more about like everything you're doing in the process, all the hats you have to wear, including that, Tim Pool beanie you have on right now.

Jared: 00:03:45

that nobody can see.

Matt: 00:03:46

Nobody can see, I'm telling them all about it.

Jared: 00:03:48

Yeah, it's actually a Legend of Zelda beanie.

Jared: 00:03:51

That's what every, you know, 42 year old man needs to wear is, uh, Nintendo video game apparel.

Jared: 00:03:56

Anyway, um, yeah, so Season 4 will be the first season, uh, in Vindication that I actually wrote all eight episodes.

Jared: 00:04:04

it'll be the first time that that has happened.

Jared: 00:04:06

Um, and then, yeah, write, direct, uh, I'm editor.

Jared: 00:04:10

I've edited every episode of Indication that we have done.

Jared: 00:04:13

Uh, post production manager.

Jared: 00:04:14

So I didn't have, I didn't really set aside budget for visual effects other than one scene, but the visual effects all throughout, I'm jumping into After Effects and creating those, and so, and it's probably a big list.

Jared: 00:04:24

I'm the accountant.

Jared: 00:04:25

So right now, like I just finished all the, uh, the 1099s that had to go out for all the people we work with.

Jared: 00:04:32

So anyway, and the list would probably go on and on of different hats, and for me it's not about wanting control or wanting to just keep all those hats on, it's like if we've got some money, let's have it end up on the screen.

Jared: 00:04:43

So if there's anything that I can do or know how to do, let me do that, and so that way the money we spend can end up in the final product.

Jared: 00:04:51

Um, and so maybe that's part of what you said, how you're really impressed by how, what the final product looks like with vindication, um, based on what we're working with.

Jared: 00:05:00

And, that's a lot of it.

Jared: 00:05:01

It's like every dollar, let's have it end up on the screen.

Matt: 00:05:04

Well, yes, as one of those writers who you fired, I'm still impressed with what you did.

Matt: 00:05:09

I did get to write for Vindication a little bit, but Jared told me that, uh, I was too vulgar, that, uh, he didn't need to include animation, mixed rai None of that's true, I did write for you, but, uh.

Jared: 00:05:23

You know, depending on perspective, uh, whether someone was fired or quit, you know, it's, it's hard to know, uh, exactly what happened.

Jared: 00:05:31

didn't know if we were going to unpack that.

Jared: 00:05:33

That's kind of been left unresolved.

Jared: 00:05:34

So are we going to unpack that in front

Jared: 00:05:36

of an audience?

Matt: 00:05:37

I think that makes for more interesting, because Jared and I never, look, we never stopped loving each other.

Matt: 00:05:42

We were always commenting each other's social media posts.

Matt: 00:05:45

what happened y'all was this, um, I think I'd written an episode or two, and um, uh, and he's right, he didn't fire me, Jared's too nice to do that, but My world had gotten very, very, uh, busy because it was political season and I do a lot in campaigns.

Matt: 00:06:00

And kept writing and sending him a draft and I just wasn't nailing what he was wanting.

Matt: 00:06:05

And finally, sensitive writers do, we get all sensitive and I'm like, I don't think I could give you what you want.

Matt: 00:06:11

You just got to take it back.

Matt: 00:06:12

I'm sorry, you know, and all down on myself.

Matt: 00:06:14

So that was kind of my perspective of what happened.

Matt: 00:06:18

And, uh, maybe yours is different.

Jared: 00:06:20

Well, I will say in Matt's defense, he kind of had a moving target, you know, cause he would work on this episode, come back to me.

Jared: 00:06:25

I go, well, we don't have access to that location anymore, so you can't use that.

Jared: 00:06:29

Oh, okay.

Jared: 00:06:30

Then you come back and he had this big, massive, beautiful monologue, like the, climax of the episode.

Jared: 00:06:36

And I'd come back and say, that's actually one of our weakest actors that we have.

Jared: 00:06:39

I don't think we want to give it.

Jared: 00:06:40

So, you know, there was a lot of back and forth and that's, that's part of where I talk about me having written all of the episodes of season four.

Jared: 00:06:48

It wasn't because, Oh, I want my pen there.

Jared: 00:06:50

It's because I know all of those little nuances and can make them happen and know what things are going to cost us a lot, what things can give us the most production value for the limited time.

Jared: 00:07:01

And what has happened, because I have worked with a number of other writers throughout seasons, and it typically gets to the end, and they always bring their own flavor to the episode that I never would have done.

Jared: 00:07:11

And that always, I think, great for audiences to get that new, something that's fresh.

Jared: 00:07:16

But time wise, when we're always working on a condensed schedule, I get to the end, and for the number of, like you mentioned, our three hour zooms, and the back and forth, and the drafts, I get to the end and go, if I had just written this myself,

Jared: 00:07:28

we

Matt: 00:07:28

just do it myself.

Jared: 00:07:29

could have been done two weeks earlier, you know, instead of all this back and forth.

Jared: 00:07:33

And so that was really the reason in season four of, Hey, I'm just going to take the reigns on this and do it all.

Jared: 00:07:38

Um, now whether people come back and say it was the best season ever or the worst, we'll let the audience decide, but,

Matt: 00:07:44

Well, your writing is brilliant.

Matt: 00:07:45

There's no doubt about that.

Matt: 00:07:47

people don't understand the back and forth that you go through.

Matt: 00:07:49

Typically when there's not just... when the entire studio isn't condensed into one genius named Jared O'Flaherty, there's a lot of, back and forth and conflict between the showrunner and the writers and the producer and the director, and they're all pulling in different directions.

Matt: 00:08:04

And it can be very difficult Certainly for a writer, but even for the director to understand all the nuances of production.

Matt: 00:08:12

And so when you are the producer and you're, you're able to write just instinctively within all the nuances of, the production limitations that you have, it does make it a whole lot more efficient.

Matt: 00:08:23

So a hundred percent get that.

Jared: 00:08:24

You know, if you want a practical example of something that, happened along those lines, uh, for season two, for the final four episodes, I think I may have written one of them, but anyway, we had other writers involved, and I had this storyline of the, the city manager, uh, who was played by Rubia Scott, Uh, that she starts, you know, like, coming on to Travis, you know, that she starts, expressing interest, even though he was married and she was going through a divorce.

Jared: 00:08:47

And all the writers that I was working with, the three, and you were one of them, all three, I kept pitching that storyline and nobody wanted it.

Jared: 00:08:53

Like, eh, nah, nah, I don't want to do it.

Jared: 00:08:55

That doesn't fit in my episode.

Jared: 00:08:57

Maybe the other writer can do it.

Jared: 00:08:58

Talk to the other writer.

Jared: 00:08:58

I don't want to do that.

Jared: 00:08:59

Nah, I don't like that.

Jared: 00:09:00

You know?

Jared: 00:09:01

So what happens at the beginning of season 3 when Jarod's writing an episode?

Jared: 00:09:04

storyline kind of gets shoehorned in, you know?

Jared: 00:09:07

And I look back and I, is that one of my favorites?

Jared: 00:09:10

Like, oh, that was brilliant, I'm glad I did that.

Jared: 00:09:12

I mean, nobody has pointed it out as like a low spot or jumping the chart, but I look back and go, maybe I tried to force that a little bit too much, that it didn't need to be there.

Jared: 00:09:21

Now it certainly serves a purpose in the overall story and, And all that, but that's just a practical example, like I said, between writers and filmmakers of

Jared: 00:09:29

going back and forth, that I, like, oh yeah, we gotta put this in, you know, that's why I introduced this character and, and nobody wanted to touch that one, so

Matt: 00:09:36

For me, that was very much I don't know if you've ever heard the story of when they were writing The Office, and they wanted to write in the plotline that Jim, cheated on Pam by kissing some co worker and the actor, John Krasinski, refused.

Matt: 00:09:49

He wouldn't shoot it.

Matt: 00:09:50

He said I'm protective over this character, our audience loves these characters, and I just, I can't, I can't, I can't.

Matt: 00:09:57

And so he's refused, and so they wrote it to where he, you know, found a way to, to kind of get around it to where he wasn't cheating on his wife.

Matt: 00:10:04

And I think that might be, we were just, we all love those two characters so much that we couldn't have, uh, Mr. Todd, Miss Peggy's character, uh, getting too

Matt: 00:10:13

close to that,

Matt: 00:10:13

I, I wrote an episode where they flirted with each other because we never, we don't see enough of that.

Matt: 00:10:17

It's okay for married people to actually have a romantic and flirty relationship.

Matt: 00:10:23

So that's, what I tried to, to incorporate the one episode that I, enjoyed the most.

Jared: 00:10:27

yeah, and to go back to the whole, uh, fired or quit, uh, You know, back and forth.

Jared: 00:10:32

The episode you did write in season two is one that, still can, and it will, when it comes out on Angel, gets lots of compliments of people, they love the, the camping trip, the hunting trip, just that getaway from the day to day and all the things that happen there, that I never would have written.

Jared: 00:10:47

I wouldn't have thought of that, and that was, I think you were given kind of a clean slate on that.

Jared: 00:10:51

you had some room there to work and, and create those things.

Jared: 00:10:54

So, it definitely worked out and people still point to it as a favorite episode.

Matt: 00:10:59

Well, you've built such a great world and the characters are really, really fun to play with and I'm, can't wait to see season four, kind of moving on into that, man, the trailer, I was just, cause I'm look, I'm a sucker for, gangster shows and shows that probably are not necessarily the most fitting of a Christian audience.

Matt: 00:11:16

Just cause I love the exploration of power dynamics and it seemed like in season two and into three we were dealing with certainly with crime but now we're, it seems like if I'm reading it correctly, season four, we're getting into some, more high level power dynamics that he's got to deal with and that's fascinating to me.

Matt: 00:11:34

We're going straight gangster here.

Matt: 00:11:35

Uh

Jared: 00:11:36

you know, when I approach each season, if there's one thing I want to stay away from, that's getting repetitive, you know,

Jared: 00:11:41

Hey, let's give a case of the week, you know, of getting cats out of trees or, you know, helping a family get reconciled or whatnot, just one after the other.

Jared: 00:11:49

So.

Jared: 00:11:51

And with season four, it's like, hey, we're going to do something totally new.

Jared: 00:11:53

It's going to be different.

Jared: 00:11:55

And so, yeah, the stakes do get elevated.

Jared: 00:11:57

Now, you run the risk, I think, as a storyteller, filmmaker of trying to make it look big when you're in a small world, especially if you don't have that big budget, right?

Jared: 00:12:05

And so I was very careful with that.

Jared: 00:12:07

That I felt.

Jared: 00:12:07

I feel like in the end it didn't get too big and seem too gigantic, you know, where people are talking about, oh, there's riots all over the country, and then you see a scene that's like three people with signs, and you're going, eh, that doesn't feel, doesn't feel big enough.

Jared: 00:12:20

So we keep it small with Travis and some of his core people, but there are definitely different stakes, but bigger stakes, um, beyond it.

Matt: 00:12:29

That's very clear in the, trailer.

Matt: 00:12:31

Another thing that's clear in the trailer, look, I've always thought ever since your pilot episode, that from a sheer production standpoint, more than maximize your budget.

Matt: 00:12:41

it looks like a real grown up movie, but I would say somehow in season four, it looks like you've even elevated the production more than you had in seasons one through three.

Jared: 00:12:50

Yeah, I mean, that's a nice compliment.

Jared: 00:12:53

Um, you know, I think back, what did we do differently?

Jared: 00:12:55

What did we change?

Jared: 00:12:56

Maybe it's just growing and learning more.

Matt: 00:12:58

It's getting better

Jared: 00:12:59

uh, yeah, I mean, our cinematographer, sound team, are people that do this all year round.

Jared: 00:13:04

It's not like hobbyists or anything.

Jared: 00:13:05

So they're good at what they do.

Jared: 00:13:07

Uh, but even Ron Gonzalez, who's our cinematographer, he came in and said, Hey, I'm going to try a few different things this season.

Jared: 00:13:12

Some stuff that I've picked up that I want to try.

Jared: 00:13:14

And, you know, that may play into it.

Jared: 00:13:16

We're using the same cameras and same lenses as seasons two and three.

Matt: 00:13:19

What are you shooting on camera

Jared: 00:13:21

so we shoot on a black magic.

Jared: 00:13:22

We actually, I think it was a black magic pocket, like pocket cinema camera or something, and then some, anamorphic lenses.

Jared: 00:13:28

So, Ron, again, to mention him, you know, he's always come to me and I say, Hey, do we, do we need to like invest and get an Alexa or do we need to go, you know, upgrade and all this?

Jared: 00:13:35

And his thought is I can get 98 percent of the image out of this.

Jared: 00:13:39

budget camera as you can get out of those.

Jared: 00:13:42

Now sure, there's, there's some room there, but you're going to spend so much and the time just to manage them.

Jared: 00:13:47

You know, this is a, the Blackmagic, it's a small camera.

Jared: 00:13:49

You can plug it in.

Jared: 00:13:50

We can go.

Jared: 00:13:51

Whereas you get some of those fancier systems, there's more prep time, building out the camera, those sorts of things.

Jared: 00:13:56

So I've always stuck with his, uh, his advice, his expertise on that.

Jared: 00:14:00

And, you know, as you're saying here, it looks really good.

Matt: 00:14:03

Well, you give a great DP, you could give a great DP an iPhone and they'll get you something beautiful out of it,

Matt: 00:14:08

right?

Matt: 00:14:09

It's less about the cameras, but that's actually good news a lot of people to hear, because something like a Blackmagic Pocket is very accessible to most people kind of climbing ladder of production.

Matt: 00:14:20

Very accessible to you.

Matt: 00:14:21

Now, The lens and the, and all the other things you build around it sometimes more difficult.

Matt: 00:14:26

You gotta rent those anamorphic lenses, and oh my gosh, I know, I know DPs love that look of the anamorphic lens.

Matt: 00:14:32

but, it makes it more accessible and it should show you that it's not just the budget behind it.

Matt: 00:14:37

It's, the knowledge and the experience going into that budget that really maximizes it.

Jared: 00:14:41

yeah, and you figure you say like, oh season four looks so much better But yet we're using most of the same people and the

Jared: 00:14:46

same equipment, you know It's that knowledge that experience of knowing, you know And and that can even start in the writing when I'm writing the scene that I go Hey, I know I can write this and it'll look really good And and if we want to get a lot of extras to add that production value Let's sprinkle that in throughout the season instead of you know You may have a writer that isn't aware of it and they write for you I mean, there's four scenes in the first episode that all have 50 extras and you're going that that's on a production that's it's too much overhead to

Jared: 00:15:11

manage

Matt: 00:15:12

do that.

Matt: 00:15:13

Yeah, no doubt about that.

Matt: 00:15:14

I think I've, actually, now that I've, boiled it down, I know what it is.

Matt: 00:15:17

I think mostly it's that Todd Terry grew his hair out.

Matt: 00:15:22

That's, that's really

Jared: 00:15:22

He looks more like a woodsman now so that

Matt: 00:15:26

he does.

Matt: 00:15:26

what was that?

Matt: 00:15:27

Is that Todd Terry, the actor, wanted to grow his hair out?

Matt: 00:15:29

Or did you think Travis, the character, needed longer hair?

Jared: 00:15:32

well I'll give you two scenarios and you can pick which of these you think happened now I as a visionary.

Jared: 00:15:38

Filmmaker called Todd and said, Todd, as I look ahead to season four, I really feel like Travis has progressed to a point where he's got longer hair, more scruffy face, and so we're going to push in that direction to match my creative vision.

Jared: 00:15:50

That's option one.

Jared: 00:15:51

Or, Todd Terry called me and said, Hey Jared, I'm going to start growing out my hair and beard to try to go for some different roles, uh, is that going to be a problem with vindication?

Jared: 00:16:00

And I said, no sir, we'll do whatever you want.

Jared: 00:16:02

So, uh, it's probably one of those two things

Matt: 00:16:04

I think it's, it was definitely one.

Matt: 00:16:06

I think you called him and said, what if Travis grows his hair out to match my vision and Todd, think that would help your career.

Matt: 00:16:13

And he said, yes, Mr. Of clarity.

Matt: 00:16:15

I agree with you totally.

Matt: 00:16:16

And so does my agent.

Jared: 00:16:18

Yeah, if you want to go with that one, then we'll, we'll, just, we'll leave it undefined of what, uh, what happened.

Matt: 00:16:23

I'll get Todd Terry on this podcast and we'll get his perspective on it for sure.

Matt: 00:16:28

So that's really exciting.

Matt: 00:16:29

Season four is coming out.

Matt: 00:16:30

is it going to be where they just release them all at once?

Matt: 00:16:32

Or is it going to be one release

Jared: 00:16:34

It's, it's going to be the weekly release, you know, and I know for, uh, for a few years, you know, with the whole Netflix and binge watching kind of became the thing to sit down and just watch it all.

Jared: 00:16:43

I actually kind of like the one per week because you get time for everyone to get to the same spot.

Jared: 00:16:48

Everyone can catch up.

Jared: 00:16:49

Uh, you can let it simmer for a little while if there's a cliffhanger, like we like to do some of those, so.

Jared: 00:16:55

There's more time to talk about it and just savor it.

Jared: 00:16:57

Whereas the binge watch, you'll have people that in the first four hours that it's out have watched the whole thing, you know, and then,

Matt: 00:17:02

and posted about it online.

Jared: 00:17:04

And they post it and they're going, when season five, what, you know, what, when season five other people, it takes him two weeks to even watch the first.

Jared: 00:17:09

So with this, I think you can keep people at the same spot.

Jared: 00:17:13

There's the excitement and all that.

Jared: 00:17:15

And instead of it being a one weekend event, it turns into eight weeks of the episodes

Jared: 00:17:20

being

Matt: 00:17:20

that's very, very smart.

Matt: 00:17:21

It makes me, as a viewer, want it more.

Matt: 00:17:24

I mean, I'm doing that right now with the Beast games.

Matt: 00:17:26

Me and my kids are just, every Thursday, we race home to watch Beast games, the Mr. Beast game show.

Matt: 00:17:32

He could've, and frustrated that he didn't release them all at once, but he I'm sure the discussion within the Mr. Beast headquarters was exactly as you just described.

Matt: 00:17:41

So I think that's from your perspective, a whole lot smarter and it's, you know, one of those, uh, delayed gratification things that we all need to better at.

Matt: 00:17:49

So I'm, totally behind you there.

Matt: 00:17:50

so, We're going to keep these episodes a little shorter, because again, I could go four hours with you.

Matt: 00:17:55

Um, but if you don't mind, I'd like tease next episode of Faith and Family Filmmakers podcast by talking about next step for vindication.

Matt: 00:18:04

Because there was an announcement back in November that teased something even after season four, and we really to kind of go into that

Matt: 00:18:12

So let's do that on the next episode.

Matt: 00:18:14

What do you say?

Jared: 00:18:15

Sounds great.